Knot Strength, part 2

   While rapelling down the north face of the netknot site,I liked the looks of the San Diego jam knot, but it did not live up to its description:

http://www.netknots.com/html/san_diego_jam_knot.html

   Here's what I found with new 10# Trilene Big Game, did not bother to tie 10 knots, as 5 showed it to be weak

1. broke at knot, 8#
2. broke at knot, 7#
3. broke at knot, 6.5#
4. broke at knot, 6.5#
5. broke at knot, 9#

   Then I tied 10 Eyecrossers with 3 wraps, instead of 2 as shown on the site

1. broke at line, 9.5#
2. broke at line, 10#
3. broke at line, 10#
4. broke at line, 9.5#
5. broke at line, 8#
6. broke at line, 9.5#
7. broke at knot, 9#
8. broke at line, 10#
9. broke at line, 7 #
10. broke at line, 10.5#

    So what do I conclude from the testing today, and earlier as given in the thread "Knot Strength Part 1"??
http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,1671.0.html

   The eyecrosser, which we could also call a double loop thru eye Uniknot with 3 wraps, gives best knot strength and almost always the knot holds and the line breaks at pretty much the rated strength.  It's easy to tie, once you get a few under your belt.
   Second best knot is the Trilene knot, also high strength and usually breaks at the line rather than the knot.   Animatedknots.com says:"The double wrap of line through the eye takes some of the strain and may be responsible for claims that this knot retains a high proprtion of ideal line strength. This is more likely when the thickness of the eye is greater than the line diameter. "

Animatedknots.com on the Uniknot:

"It is fairly easy to tie in the dark with practice. Claims that it retains a high proportion of line strength have been disputed. When tied round a large diameter eye, it may retain strength well, but if used to join two lines, like other knots where a line passes round itself, a breaking strain of 50% of ideal performance is more likely. "

   I no longer tie the regular Uniknot, as even its developer says it does not hold line strength.  But the Eyecrosser variation of the Uniknot is an excellent one, my "go-to" knot for tying line to swivel or snap.

I have found a great new knot---the Spangler.  Here's a link:

http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/fishing-tutorials-members/301513-knot.html

I have tested the Spangler head-to-head against the eye-crosser-----the spangler won every time.  Tied a foot of 20# CXX mono to a 100# swivel with the spangler, on the other end tied another swivel with the eye-crosser.  put vice-grips on each swivel and pulled until somthing broke (yes, safety glasses) and in every case, the eye-crosser broke.  I intend to try the Jansik Special against the Spangler, but that Spangler is easier to tie:

http://www.fish4fun.com/jansik.htm

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-tie-jansik-special-fishing-knot-250536/

The Jansik is out for me----strong, yes, but fussy to tie (3 times thru the eye), and both the tag end and the running part stand at 90 degrees to the hook.  With the spangler, the running line comes straight back from the hook eye, as does the clinch knot and the PAlomar.  So it's the Spangler for this angler!!

Just gave that one a shot. Very simple to tie and seems to not burn the line as much as unis. The compactness of the knot is also pretty sweet. Thanks for the post KT.

Z

I'll have to give that one a try! I am a huge fan of the palomar for braid and the spangler looks even easier to tie.

I have not watched knot wars for a bit, but this was a leader

Fishin Fool Knot.
beat out the Palomar

(I have yet to read the part 1 of this thread, sorry if this is a dupe comment)

The fishing fool is just a 5 to 7 turn Uni, twice thru the eye, like the eye-crosser.  Consider the eye-crosser a 3 turn fishing fool.   I spent some time at the Sportsman Show Trilene booth last year, we tested the uni-knot on their testing machine, and it pulled out every time.  This was a once-thru the eye, 5 turn  Uni knot.  So I went to the Palomar, but in my tests with the scale and 12# line, the eye-crosser beat the Palomar every time.  Now we have the Spangler, which beats the eye-crosser in head-to-head tests.  Only downside is the tag end comes out at 90 degrees, so might catch weeds, if you're in dirty water----like Willapa Bay.I prefer the tag end to lay back along the running line as it does with the Trilene or eye-crosser, but when I get confident with a knot, I trim it really close, so that may not be an issue.  But-----the Spangler is easy to tie, once you get a few under your belt.  I want to do some macro-photography of the various knots, and will post here.

Which line type and brand have you found to be the most dependable for leaders?

Terry, have you tried these tests on larger test line?

-Allen

A lot of people swear by Maxima Ultragreen, I have used it and like it.  Presently using Pline CX, the CXX is over-test and springy, and very hard finish.   I have used fluorocarbon (Seagur premium) in the past, it has a lot going for it.  Lack of stretch is NOT one, it stretches about as much as Trilene Big Game----a good thing, IMHO, takes stress off your knots.  I am not a believer in fluoro's invisibility, if you put a piece of fluoro and a piece of mono in water, they seem equally visible to the human eye.  But  an advantage to fluoro is it's lack of water absorption, especially important in the salt, as the salt water dries in the mono, it leaves microscopic particles of salt, which weakens the line.  Here's a link to an interesting comparison test on TacklTour of several fluorcarbon lines:

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbontestpg3.html

and a sequel

 http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2.html
They also tested mono lines awhile back. 

     My experience with fluoro was a couple-3 years back, when fluoro lines were having knot strength problems.  Tom Pollack at Sportco says these problems are pretty much in the past, I intend to give Seaguar Premium another try, in the 20# size.  The biggest downside to fluoro is the cost, but if you just use it for leaders, shouldn't be too significant.

  Alan----My initial tests were with 12# line tied to a scale.  I tried one with 20# line, it broke at 29# and knocked off the spring stop on my scale!  SO, to test higher strength line, I tie my "reference" knot (the Spangler) to a 100# swivel, and a foot or so away tie the knot to be tested to another swivel.  Then put the free end of each swivel in a Vicegrip, and pull (using safety glassas!!) until something breaks.  I have not tested 40# line, which I use for leaders in Willapa Bay. Several of the guys who fish there in the fall, including the marina desk dude, tell me 30# is too light for Willapa kings, and I did have a fish break me off at Willapa last fall with 30# mooching leader, so....when in ROme....but back in 1980's at Langara Lodge, I landed a 35lb king with a 12# leader (with a 9inch rubber snubber at the sinker). My boat buddy landed a 42# king at Langara with 10# leader----also with snubber.  He was a very meticulous guy who put a spot of epoxy in the hook eye to smooth out that sharp bit of wire where  the eye bends closed.  He liked 9 foot leaders of original Stren.  His name was Tony Pletcher, he was a Canada Fisheries manager who spent a lot of time in Africa hunting lions, but that's another story!!

Science! I love it. Nice work KT. Gonna give the spangler a try.

Do knots behave differently for different pound test?

Why is a 5 turn uni recommended for 20-40 pound, but a 4 turn is good for 50-80, and a 3 turn is good for even higher?

-Allen

Do knots behave differently for different pound test?

Why is a 5 turn uni recommended for 20-40 pound, but a 4 turn is good for 50-80, and a 3 turn is good for even higher?

-Allen

Not sure the exact science but i have always done more turns with smaller line, maybe becaause small line has less surface area and slips easier. Too many twists with heavy line seems like it binds when i try to tighten it and it just doesn't feel right.

I don't think you can cinch down a 5-turn uni in 100# mono.  As the diameter increases, so does the force needed to complete the knot.  The tensile strength comes into play in lines above 20#---I bought an Accurate B270 reel loaded with 65# braid with a 30# mono "topshot", and started playing with 30# P-line CXX, and noticed that a 5-turn uni is getting a bit hard to cinch down.  The Spangler is easy to tie with 30#, unlike the Jansik special, which is very fussy.
   Since getting the Accurate, I've been practicing the 15 turn Bimini twist with improved (7 turns up, 7 back down) Albright   for braid-to-mono and everything I've read seems to point to that combo as the gold standard for braid/mono.

Charkbait site has link to  YouTube vid on tying the Bimini and Albright.  Here's a couple:



http://www.marlinnut.com/knots/albright.shtml

I don't think you can cinch down a 5-turn uni in 100# mono.

Hmmm ... sounds logical.  Except ... aren't the forces proportional?  Is a 3 turn knot in 100 weaker (relative to target strength) than a 5 turn knot in 10?

   Since getting the Accurate, I've been practicing the 15 turn Bimini twist with improved (7 turns up, 7 back down) Albright   for braid-to-mono and everything I've read seems to point to that combo as the gold standard for braid/mono.

Can you try a Worm Knot instead of the Improved Albright and test them head to head please?

-Allen