NorthWest Kayak Anglers

Kayak Fishing => Product Discussions => Topic started by: Yarjammer on June 08, 2011, 08:01:39 PM

Title: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 08, 2011, 08:01:39 PM
Has anyone seen or used one of these?  I am seriously considering upgrading my 'finder and wondering how well they work.

 
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: polepole on June 08, 2011, 08:16:07 PM
About to get one too.  Alas, I don't think I'll have it before ORC.

-Allen
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 08, 2011, 08:32:49 PM
I'm having the hardest time deciding between Humminbird and Lowrance.  I'm trying to figure out if the differences are akin to arguing Ford v. Chevy.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: kykfshr on June 08, 2011, 09:25:14 PM
I am just finishing up installing a 798ci hd si combo on my Ultra.  Will post some pics of the install when I am done.  Your welcome to check it out at the ORC or shoot me a PM and we could meet up for some poison water bass fishin.

Scott
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 08, 2011, 09:39:52 PM
Sweet setup, but my wife will kill me if I spend as much on my 'finder as I did on my 'yak.  She's pissed I'm considering a $500 one.  I'll be heading to Cabelas on Saturday and probably won't make my final decision until I'm in the store.  I am really torn on whether or not color is worth the premium given that I actually prefer the greyscale to color in the standard versions.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Quillback on June 08, 2011, 09:59:12 PM
As far as the manufacturer, I think it is a Chev / Ford decision.  Ask several guides and it depends on which manufacturer is their sponsor.
I'm partial to color as I like the contrast better than B/W.  With that said you should look at the power requirements for each: Humminbird, Lowrance, B/W & color.  I have a Humminbird 778c that requires 650 mA.  If I run it at 50% brightness it only requires 350 mA.  I don't think you will go wrong with selecting either one.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: demonick on June 09, 2011, 08:53:20 AM
I have a Humminbird 788ci and love it.  It is not down imaging and I wish it was.  It has been perfectly reliable and definitely gets wet and survives well.  I do completely rinse it under a fresh water tap after each use.  I run it at full brightness so it is pulling 650mA all the time and my 7aH battery gives at least 8 hours of use.  I have lowered the warning voltage level to the minimum. 

Since I have never used a Lowrance unit I can not compare them, but I am completely satisfied with my Humminbird.  They do occasionally have reconditioned units.  If I ever upgrade, I am going to go with down imaging.

One thing you need to consider is if the down imaging will work well shooting through the plastic.  Down imaging is a much more precision technology than simple sonar.  Since Humminbird and Ocean Kayak are both owned by Johnson Outdoors I suspect they could answer the question for you. 
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: bsteves on June 09, 2011, 09:55:23 AM
Quote
One thing you need to consider is if the down imaging will work well shooting through the plastic.  Down imaging is a much more precision technology than simple sonar.  Since Humminbird and Ocean Kayak are both owned by Johnson Outdoors I suspect they could answer the question for you.

Ah but kykfshr doesn't have to worry about this with his OK Ultra 4.7 as it's already compatible with the large down imaging transducers. 

Here's  a link to an Australian kayak fishing forum where an Ultra 4.7  + Humminbird 798ci raves about his side scan/down image sonar set up.  He's even saved a few tracks and plotted them on Google Earth.  It's pretty neat.

http://www.kfdu.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=15939 (http://www.kfdu.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=15939)

About 6 posts down he posts an image of the transducer mount.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Stumblefish on June 09, 2011, 11:23:07 AM
I'm curious as to the depth range. With limited power and , I'm guessing, very few beams , it might only get to 50'-75, deep enough for me though.  If I got one I'd spend too much time playing sonarman instead of fishing. :laugh:
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 09, 2011, 11:30:18 AM
One thing you need to consider is if the down imaging will work well shooting through the plastic.  Down imaging is a much more precision technology than simple sonar.  Since Humminbird and Ocean Kayak are both owned by Johnson Outdoors I suspect they could answer the question for you.

I've been wondering about that, but I think I would mount it in one of the scupper hole cavities (similar to the 'bird scupper transducer) and marine goop it in place after cutting off/trimming the mounting tang.  The scupper should still be able to flow water around it.  I imagine it would work through the poly, I just want to maximize its potential if I'm dropping that kind of money on it.

Humminbird DI transducer:
(http://image.become.com/imageserver/s9/999211199-150-150-5-32/humminbird-down-imaging-trolling-motor-transducer.jpg)


The effective depth for getting the most from the down imaging is ~15'-200'.  Supposedly its horrible for shallow (who cares?) and has a sweet spot between 30'-150' where you get the best returns.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: bsteves on June 09, 2011, 11:31:25 AM
According to the Humminbird site, max depth on the side/down imaging for the 798ci is 100ft.  But it also has traditional 83/200 kHz bands that are good to 1500 ft.

I'm officially jealous and I know that I'd also spend too much time playing sonar man if I had one.   Actually, I'd probably just paddle back and forth at my favorite fishing holes recording data and making underwater maps in Google Earth later on.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 09, 2011, 11:39:29 AM
I think the 200' depth is coming from the guys running the much larger units.  I don't really have much use for any visibility below ~100'  anyways.  The fact that Humminbird has the ability to function on 83/200 in addition to 455 is a bonus over the Lowrance.

Right now I have to figure out what I value most - DI, Color, & GPS.  I can't afford all three in one the unit.  I have a handheld GPS and don't rely on it too much except for locating a spot every now and again.  If it was on my 'finder, I might use it more.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: kardinal_84 on June 09, 2011, 12:13:19 PM
I LOVE fishing toys!!!  But really, what advantage is there to seeing an "image"  isn't that what I am looking at anyways on the returns?  Every picture I have seen of the normal sonar returns and the "down imagining" image look exactly the same to me with a bunch of the "fuzz" removed.

My buddy has a side scan system on is boat and other than the "that's neat" factor, can't say it has ever helped us really find fish. 

Totally clueless.  Got a little excited and after researching it a bit, a LOT less excited about this down imaging.  I must be missing something I think???
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Stumblefish on June 09, 2011, 12:24:29 PM
While the fish finder helps you find fish , the higher frequency imaging ones seem to show more detail. I think the imaging ones are more for they guys who know the species real well, the imaging will show structures like trees,rock outcrops and bottom channels in good detail so they can plan how to fish better.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: bsteves on June 09, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
The nice thing about side scan is that it does just as it sounds, it scans the sides.  You have a much wider scan of the bottom and you know where (how far left or right) things are in the image.  For example.. you might be paddling along directly over a sandy bottom, but with the side scan going, you'll notice the rocky out crop 30 m to your left and be able to mark it as 30 m to your left via the GPS and come back to it to fish.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 09, 2011, 02:59:18 PM
I've never really relied on the fish finder to find actual fish as the species I prefer can be located based on the structure.  Bass, panfish, catfish, halibut, and ling cod have preferred habitats unlike their salmonid cousins that generally tend to occupy the unobstructed portion of the water column.  Some people have an eye for reading the images on a traditional sonar... I don't.  On my Cuda 168 and HB Matrix 17 I could never truly make out the difference between rocks and salad.  Supposedly the DI also has the ability to depict where the thermocline is which would be a boon here in the northwest for nearly year-round fishermen. 

I want to believe that DI will be akin to my putting on glasses in the morning.  I can survive without them, but I am much more efficient and productive with 'em.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: kallitype on June 09, 2011, 03:57:48 PM
I thought long and hard about this, I have (On my 15' Arima) a Humminbird Matrix 97 which is a fantastic combo sonar/GPS, was about $600 a few years back.  For the yak, I needed a combo unit that was $400 or less, went with a Lowrance color combo, nice but no Si or DI.  I find the ability to find salmonids at 150-250 feet a real plus, the DI and SI really come into their own in shallower freshwater lakes, like 30-60 feet.  I don't think there's much utility for SI in the salt, Di is a maybe/maybe not.   If I were a lake fisherman interested in trout and bass, I'd have SI.
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: demonick on June 10, 2011, 08:26:22 AM
The effective depth for getting the most from the down imaging is ~15'-200'.  Supposedly its horrible for shallow (who cares?) and has a sweet spot between 30'-150' where you get the best returns.

So, I believe what is being said here is that, in the salt the SI/DI will only help in seeing structure in the WA state legal bottom fish fishing zone.  Does the SI/DI NOT see fish?
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 10, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
Depending on the sensitivity settings and your appreciation for abstract art, you can get some incredible readings of both structure and fish.  I found this site on a random Google search and I've been amazed at the treasure trove of Humminbird data: http://www.bbcboards.net/zerothread?id=652357 (http://www.bbcboards.net/zerothread?id=652357)

This is an interesting thread as well: http://www.bbcboards.net/zerothread?cmd=print&id=493214 (http://www.bbcboards.net/zerothread?cmd=print&id=493214) (Keep in mind, this was written prior to the 2011 HB model year where DI only became available on the 500 series HB's)

At this point I am unsure about the effectiveness of DI on a kayak due to its exaggerated hull motion relative to a larger boat of similar length and screen size limitations. :-\
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Lee on June 10, 2011, 10:03:28 AM
Does the DI have the ability to work as a normal FF as well?
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 10, 2011, 11:31:25 AM
The Humminbord units have a the standard 83/200 in addition to the DI; Lowrance does not for the non-HDS models. 
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: kallitype on June 10, 2011, 02:22:52 PM
Here's the 570 DI, about $300---no 83kh,  but the 200kh for the standard sonar is preferable to 80 or 83, in terms of depth capability and cone angle--for me, YMMV.

Features:
Monochrome 5" 640x320 display
455/800 kHz Down-Imaging sonar and 200 kHz down-beam sonar
800ft depth capability, 2000 Watts PtP
custom View Selections
Quick-Disconnect mounting system
Product Description
Timber, rocks, or even fish--watch it all take shape on crystal-clear, full-color 5" displays. With screens that size, it's easy to take advantage of versatile Down Imaging Sonar and exclusive Humminbird SwitchFire technology. We're talki
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: [WR] on June 10, 2011, 04:18:56 PM
Yar,
I'm using the 788C dual beam plus. W/GPS. so far it's been great. it's not DI, but having used it on Rapjon Lake, Silver Lake, Nisqually Delta and Chambers Creek area of Puget Sound, i've been more than happy with the results. yes it's a bit expensive for most kayak fishing, but the large color screen and the ability to navigate via GPS has paid off twice for me on the Nisqually system.

i really am starting to think that DI and SI should be left for the bass boat/ fishing guide set. with dual beam, i get a heck of a lot of information and really good bottom contour/structure information, probably far more information than i really need if i want to be honest. It just depends on what menus i choose.

 From what i've read of DI and SI, i'm not sure it fits in well with our multi water styles of fishing. In fact it may be downright confusing for you in some cases, like going onto the salt at Neah Bay after having used it so much at Potholes and Beaver Lake.

remember, this is just my opinon from limited time use of what i've got. and thanks for those links. i'm learning a lot from them.

BTW, heres a Humminbird online list for Dual Beams if you want an alternative or just want to upgrade to a better unit. and yeh i know what you have is probably dual beam already.
 
 http://store.humminbird.com/search?&n=0&va=t&q=DualBeam&t=products (http://store.humminbird.com/search?&n=0&va=t&q=DualBeam&t=products)
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: [WR] on June 11, 2011, 03:17:43 PM
Amos,
Beckyit? Whadjagit?
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Yarjammer on June 11, 2011, 10:58:14 PM
After confirming my concerns about DI with two different people at Cabelas this afternoon I picked up a HB 597ci HD.  A big thanks to Demonick for letting me use his scupper transducer!
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: demonick on June 12, 2011, 08:34:08 AM
After confirming my concerns about DI with two different people at Cabelas this afternoon I picked up a HB 597ci HD.  A big thanks to Demonick for letting me use his scupper transducer!

Do our WA contingent proud at ORC!
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: Fungunnin on June 12, 2011, 09:00:37 AM
After confirming my concerns about DI with two different people at Cabelas this afternoon I picked up a HB 597ci HD.  A big thanks to Demonick for letting me use his scupper transducer!

I picked up a 597ci HD at Cabela's two weeks ago for a steal! It was missing the mounting bracket and the power cable and marked down $200! ORC will be it's maiden voyage too. Can't wait...
Title: Re: Down Imaging Fishfinders in Kayak?
Post by: polepole on July 05, 2011, 09:33:09 AM
One thing you need to consider is if the down imaging will work well shooting through the plastic.  Down imaging is a much more precision technology than simple sonar.  Since Humminbird and Ocean Kayak are both owned by Johnson Outdoors I suspect they could answer the question for you.

I've been wondering about that, but I think I would mount it in one of the scupper hole cavities (similar to the 'bird scupper transducer) and marine goop it in place after cutting off/trimming the mounting tang.  The scupper should still be able to flow water around it.  I imagine it would work through the poly, I just want to maximize its potential if I'm dropping that kind of money on it.

Humminbird DI transducer:
(http://image.become.com/imageserver/s9/999211199-150-150-5-32/humminbird-down-imaging-trolling-motor-transducer.jpg)


The effective depth for getting the most from the down imaging is ~15'-200'.  Supposedly its horrible for shallow (who cares?) and has a sweet spot between 30'-150' where you get the best returns.

When I went to install my 597ci HD DI, I found that the transducer does NOT fit in the Ultra scupper hole mount (or the T13 scupper hole mount).  Looks like I'll have to mount inside the kayak.  I talked to Humminbird and they said there should not be any problems with that.  I was concerned about the possibility of the poly/epoxy perturbing the DI signal.

BTW, Humminbird's recommended procedure is to use a slow curing 2 part epoxy, the main concern being bubbles and that fast curing tends to be too brittle.

-Allen