NCKA Rescue down at Shelter Cove, California

Like I said before.....float bags dudes. I really don't think pool noodles will provide enough flotation when you have over 800 pounds of water in your kayak. the only think that will is air.

It's all about volume and displacement. As long as the volume of the pool noodles is the same as the volume of float bags, the net effect will be about the same (the noodles will weigh a little more than bags). The equal volume will displace the same weight of water. The noodles will shine in 2 areas, compared to the float bags. First, they are totally puncture proof. Float bags are not. (I know this from experience.) Secondly, noodles can be had at ridiculously cheap prices.

I completely agree with you about the importance of learning good boating skills. The water around here is cold and heartless.

My T13 has 8 noodles in it right now.  I am also working on a fiberglass rod pod lid design that will be a tighter fit, and sturdier overall. 

Like I said before.....float bags dudes. I really don't think pool noodles will provide enough flotation when you have over 800 pounds of water in your kayak.

800 pounds of water is irrelevant - you're IN water...  You don't THINK pool noodles will provide enough flotation?  Try stuffing some in your trunks and diving to the bottom of a pool.  It's like PS said, air bags can puncture - like when a shark bites your boat (it's happened), or when you leave them in your hull for a while and they're weak.  I've got two dozen pool noodles in my hull - they weigh about 3 pounds.  I'd say that's worth the peace of mind.

I personally think a coast guard rescue in that situation is ridiculous............I know people here tend to scoff at my emphasis on kayaking, because you are all fisherman to start, rather than kayakers. But the reality is, you are using a kayak, therefore you are a kayaker who happens to be fishing and should learn as much as you can about kayaking....you already know how to fish.

Ridiculous?!  You weren't even there, and there was no rescue, just a call to the Coast Guard who helped us get a powerboat assist.  "You are all fisherman to start..." is a bold one too.  You're picking my scabs, NANOOK, and I think you're going a little over the top with your statements.  Those who were there felt the situation was handled very well, and we made some great corrections and learned alot in the discussion afterward.  I'd have to say I feel you're way off the mark in your observations about pool noodles, the ridiculousness of calling the CG, and your assumption that all people on this board (or NCKA) are fishermen first.  I was a fisherman first, but I've been kayaking for over 10 years now on several different models of yaks, and, believe me, I spend much more time kayaking than fishing, so I feel I'm a very proficeint kayaker. 

I'd be wary, if I were you, of making bold statements about the efforts of others who you've not met and when you were not present for the event in question.  I do, however, respect the fact that you gave input and took a stand.  Nice to meet you.     

For a moment I thought Eric was losing it ... that is until he put the little winky smiley at the end.

Eric, Nanook has good intentions.  He may be off base with the pool noodle comment, but he's on a quest to make us better kayakers.  And he's right, there are about 500 ways to handle this.  I'm pretty sure that most of us here have thought through maybe 1 of them.   

Nanook, class is in session ... what are some of the ways you would have handled this?

-Allen

Yeah......  Nanook lets start a list, and when you get to 500 I'll buy you a beer

I've got two dozen pool noodles in my hull - they weigh about 3 pounds.  I'd say that's worth the peace of mind.

Two dozen?  How do you secure them?  I'm not sure I could fit 2 dozen 5 foot pool noodles in my T13.  I've got 6 stuffed into the sides held in place by the scuppers, and could probably get a few more on each side by stuffing them up into the gunwale, but I doubt I could get a dozen in after that. 

I'll go first.  I would have whipped my pump out and emptied that yak out.  Then I would have escorted Al all the way to the beach.

Yes, I know, I wasn't there so it is easy for me to be an armchair quarterback.  Take my comments with a grain of salt.

-Allen

Ladies and Gentlemen;
My intention when i asked ABKING to share with us was to make us better kayakers and to reinforce the underlying safety standards we must all live by when on the water.

i was also hoping that those who watched what took place in the video picked up on the sense of responsibility and community that was very evident.

it was not my intent to start a flame war.

Admins,
please, if this continues to degenerate to 4th grade level, pull the plug and erase this.
Rich

Ladies and Gentlemen;
My intention when i asked ABKING to share with us was to make us better kayakers and to reinforce the underlying safety standards we must all live by when on the water.

i was also hoping that those who watched what took place in the video picked up on the sense of responsibility and community that was very evident.

it was not my intent to start a flame war.

Admins,
please, if this continues to degenerate to 4th grade level, pull the plug and erase this.
Rich

Rich,  I'm not going to pull the plug on this one.  It is through experiences like this that we all learn.  It is important to have the discussion.  I expect there to be many points of view on this, some of which will differ substantially, but I trust everyone here will keep it civil.

-Allen

my hopes too, Allen..

and we now go back to the original intent; sharing and discussion in a civilized manner.

what would i have done?

first, get to the poor guy in the water, in this case ALsHobieOutback, whom i've never met, and make sure he's just gonna be wet and not in any other trouble. have him/her grab the back of my boat and hang on. pretty much what happened at Shelter Cove.

then, assist him where possible, either by going to the front and stabilizing the boat ala T rescue, or pulling alongside and holding it still so he / she can climb back on.

but, this yak was sinking [ Eric, did Als ever determine why?] so i'd also look for a pump and try pumping it out to get some floatation back into it..if that person can paddle back to shore, stay with them and both of us head back in. still leaking too much and sinks again, i'd probably have to write off the boat , tell the owner to grab what he/she could out of it, cross load that to my yak, then tow him/her back in and try to recover the boat later if possible.. my main concern is the safety and well being of the person. thats if there is no body else there to assist.

in the case we are presented with, i can't find fault with what was accomplished. why should i? people pretty much kept their heads, Al got plenty of assistance, there were lots of rescue assets contacted and stading by in case things went even further south, and boaters not even connected with the event didnt even think twice about assisting a person in need.

i'm like Abking in many respects, and probably like many other here. I've come to this as a fisherman first, but my love of just pure yakking , being out on the water for the sheer enjoyment of being on the water, is growing each time i go out. at some point, i'll feel proficient enough to actually go out and buy a good touring yak and actually fulfill that growing sense of adventure.

meantimes, i have a lot to learn about being on the water. but one thing i always knew from day one; self reliance is not always an option, and on the water, you must render what assistance you can give when another human being is in dire need.

 

I apologize to my NWKA cousins and to NANOOK for having a strong tone in that last message.  Re-reading it now I can see that it comes off as upset, and I admit I'm a little sensitive about the issue.  I didn't mean to insult anyone or degrade the discussion.  I hope you'll give me a chance as a friendly influence because that is what I truly mean to be.   

My perspective at the Shelter Cove gathering was unique in that I was the instigator of this "hookup" that turned into a huge gathering.  I felt an extra sense of responsibility for what occured, and there was nothing simple about what did occur...

The ocean, though quite managable for the few dozen experienced ocean kayak fishermen there, was actually very squirly, or unorganized, choppy, messy...etc.  The consideration of getting a pump out seemed like a hazard for whoever would open a hatch - especially right there where we were assisting Al.  It didn't seem like it in the video, but that was an area where a set with breakers could come through on a long interval  (southwest-facing point break).  So we were all about getting Al and his boat out of there to safer water.  There was also the factor of not knowing why it was half full of water, so pumping it out didn't present itself as a smart option in the short term at all.  Turned out that Ariel quite easily towed it out of harm's way and around the horn the 1/2 mile or so into the harbor.  By the time we had Al in the powerboat and our "mayday" cancelled everything was under perfect control, but when you paddle up on a guy in the water next to his disabled boat and he didn't know if anyone was coming because his radio went dead when he went in the drink, and he's near breakers on wash rocks a few hundred yards from shore and not at a spot where you could land or even easily get on the rocks, and he is too large of a man to just say "lay on my lap, pal..." - that's when you do what we did.  We got him to hold onto Domenic's boat, right at Dom's lap where Dom could assist him if necessary - the guy could be in shock or other distress.  Others tended to his boat and we generally moved away from the rocks and potential breaker zone as quickly as possible.  It was as I approached that I told Don, who had miraculously heard Al's call from the nearby hotel right on the beach and responded in time to see Al go in the drink and actually alert the rest of us (miracle in itself), anyway I told Don I thought we were in a mayday situation since we had a disabled boat and man in the water.  He agreed and called it.  After the incident and the making of the movie and some discussion and kudos going around about how well it went we had a very experienced member, guide, yak peddler, member give a more realistic report of how the Coasties had mobilized X amount of resources right when we called and it's not something to take lightly...etc.  It opened some eyes and turrned into a great discussion.  I went from proud to have taken part in it to thinking, "Jeez, I just about blew it!"  I did a little research, because I had a vague memory of Coast Guard safety protocol relating to calls that should be made...  Here's how it goes:  "Securite" (Say-cure-it-ay) is a low level distress call to inform of a potentially hazardous situation.  Pan-pan[1] (pronounced /ˈpæn ˈpæn/) is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.  Mayday does involve immediate danger to life.  So we should have called a Pan-pan.  As it was, the Coasties probably deal with this often enough, and Don had properly immediately provided all the information of our situation, so, in essence, the CG knew we were in a "pan-pan" state and not an actual "mayday"...  They were able to extremely quickly get our info to the Shelter Cove VFD who was in the act of getting a boat or watercraft mobilized when we got the private sport boat to run out for Al.  At that time, only a few minutes after calling our "mayday", we told the CG we had it all handled and that was it.

Again, it was an amazing bit of good fortune that Don, on shore at the beach hotel, heard Al's distress call of "my boats filling with water" or something to that affect, and he went out on his third floor balcony, spotted Al, saw him go into the water by himself where no one could see him and by those rocks, and then proceeded to orchestrate the quick and efficeint rescue with the Coast Guard on the line.

Now, Al made some mistakes here.  Paddling too close to the rocks.  Heading in to the launch alone when he'd had some trouble with his boat the previous day (I still haven't heard what the exact problem was, but he's pretty big and if those hatches leak with more weight on board then that's likely it with the squirly sees and all...).  Not being good at self rescue.  Not having his own pump at the ready.  But he did some things right too.  Got on his radio and quickly hailed that he was having trouble.  Didn't panic and stuck with his boat until help arrived.  Had a plan if help wasn't coming (he was going to ditch the boat and get to the rocks, but that was dicey...).  Everyone involved actually did wonderfully, and it was more complicated and potentially hazardous than it may seem from the video.  Al, myself and all involved are open to whatever feedback comes out of this, and it can serve to help all of us.

As for what to do in that situation next time, there is much to discuss regarding how a properly prepared kayaker in the ocean should not need a "distress call" if there are others around and conditions are conducive to using the tools and abilities we have for the situation at hand.  We all need to take a hard look at what we carry in the ocean or on any body of water, and how well we keep ourselves prepared for what may be needed physically.  It's also up to us to keep a little pressure on those who hang with us out there regarding safety and good practices, but it's ultimately an individual decision.  Personally, I carry quite a lot of safety gear and I try to keep my body and abilities at their best for what I'm doing, and I try to hang with others who do those things too. 

Now, for those expensive air-sacks...  I'll keep my pool noodles.   

PS:  It's so easy to get the 24 noodles in my X-Factor - I'm sure I could get at least 2 dozen more in there.  I like my big boat.   

Fellas-

I'm no stranger to stiff responses, and I don't take it personally. My intention is to stir it up and get people thinking, not attack anyone personally.

You are right, I wasn't there, and I think the situation was handled well. You did the right thing for letting the coast guard know what was happening as a precaution. That's what should happen. Everyone responded well, but yes Pan Pan would have been a better call. I know how nasty Shelter Cove can get, and I know whitey lurks nearby, I understand the sense of urgency.

I think I would have gotten a few guys to bilge his boat, pulled him back on his yak, clipped on a tow line, and towed him back to the harbor. He could bilge as he was towed. You could raft up another yak to his and have others nearby encase it sank, in which case I would have him lay across two or three yaks in tow. If I got tired I would have someone clip a line to my yak for an inline tow. I would not have called the Coasties unless he was injured or showed signs of hypothermia, and I wouldn't have done that until the swimmer was secured.

You all had your tow lines right?

Anyone using thigh straps? Makes it allot easier to stay on your yak through surf and chop.

I'll work on that "500 things I would do" list and get back with you. I could use a beer

I guess my feeling is that pool noodles are better than nothing, it just seems to me that a porous surface that can absorb water would lose it's buoyancy a little bit more every day. The noodle relies on air pockets in the foam to provide buoyancy, if the pockets are all saturated, there is less buoyancy. Where as a non permeable material could never absorb water. Yes, float bags can pop, but if they are positioned properly in the boat, they should be out of the way of any action. I guess my concern is that pool noodles will degrade over time but so will bags, but for a buck a pop, they're easy to replace. I wish I was smart enough to test that hypothesis. How about a float bag and pool noodles?

I guess I didn't realize how serious you guys are about your noodles

I also think a bilge should be kept on deck rather than in a hatch. Same reason you keep your paddle float on deck in a sea kayak. Last thing you want to do in a rough water situation is to open a hatch. They also make a pretty decent kill stick.

I guess my feeling is that pool noodles are better than nothing, it just seems to me that a porous surface that can absorb water would lose it's buoyancy a little bit more every day. The noodle relies on air pockets in the foam to provide buoyancy, if the pockets are all saturated, there is less buoyancy.

I've had noodles in my yak's hulls for years at a time and never noticed degradation. Actually since they're protected from the sun and they're never really even touched they still look/feel new. If there are noodles that are smashed repeatedly the outer 1/8 of an inch of those does get a little soggy.

Last thing you want to do in a rough water situation is to open a hatch.

Actually for SOT's the place where water would need to be pumped from would be inside the hull. So we have to open a hatch no matter what.

Z

True, but if you were assisting someone else, you wouldn't have to jeapordize your own flotation by opening your hatch.

I like the little day hatch between the legs. That is a perfectly sized hole to pump from. Small enough to not let much water in if waves were breaking. They should put them on all SOT's just for that reason.