Anchor Point King Derby plans

Sorry this is so poorly organized.  I pieced it together over a few days.  But all this talk about the upcoming derbies has got me motivated and I definitely want as many people as possible to come out and try it!

Let me know what i can add.  Also I absolutely do NOT have the monopoly on good ideas so let's hear some other ideas.

My hope is to not only enter a king but try to get a kayak to WIN the derby!!!!!!

Okay the disclaimer is I have only fished this one season from a kayak.  So this is merely what I gathered from about 5 trips in which I caught two kings and my friend caught one.  So while we were successful, it probably wasn’t optimal.

The first thing to know is that you are at the mercy of the tides.  There was no fighting it when I was on my mini-x.  Later in the year with my outback, I could hold against the current but you aren’t going to go very fast against it if at all.  So you have to time the tides.  Go with the flow as they say.

As an example, today March 9, 2012, the peak current appears to be about 3.72mph off Anchor Point according to my Navioncs chart.  There are a few things to keep in mind, the tide goes slack first near shore.  If you plan on fishing 6 hours, you need to launch 3 hours before slack tide and ride the currents, then you fish the three hours coming back with the current.  Basically if you make the mistake of launching at high or low slack, you are in for a 12 hour trip.  The other way to think about it is that the closer you launch to the slack tides, the shorter your trip will be. 
I do think that with Hobies, you can almost hold position so if you don’t have a lot of time, you can paddle “upcurrent” for about half of the tide when I tried it in the fall. 

This seems awful fast.  Last year when i was fishing the peak current was less than 3mph.



Then add in the fact that the wind is also a factor.  If the wind is blowing south, then plan on adding additional time to get back up the inlet (north).  Don’t underestimate the winds effect on the kayak.  On one trip, I was on a mini-x and my friend was in a inflatable kayak.  We drifted south then came back up north as the tide changed.  Then a strong head wind started and we ended up walking 2 miles up the beach because we just couldn't fight the wind even though the current was slack.  The good news if you own a Hobie is that the mirage drive does a great job of cutting into a headwind.

This is a fishery that once you launch you are committed.  Unless you want to walk 5 miles or more up the beach, you need to rely on the tidal currents to get you back to the launch.  The fishery is from right along the beach to about half a mile out.  So you are always fairly close to shore but you won’t be near your vehicle so you need to pack everything for a full day. 

I hope I didn't scare any one.  You don't have to time it perfectly.  You just need to be in the vicinity of the take out since an hour maybe two on either side of the slack tide, the current is flowing slow enough to be able to make headway in either direction.  Keep in mind I did this out of a 9ft Mini-x last year.  The Ocean kayak and the sit inside that came along did MUCH better in the current and wind.  I think my Hobie will be just as effective.

This presents a special problem for lucky anglers.  We will be in the special harvest area.  If you get lucky and catch a king you are done fishing for the entire day for ANY species within one mile of the shore line.  The solution is to go fish halibut after you get a mile off shore.  Its not as far as you think but you will be away from the armada of boats and therefore away from at least perceived safety.  I figure it’s a small price to pay to be lucky.  but we can always get lucky so bring some gear that you can catch a halibut with!!!  This also means you need a GPS.  I use my iphone and a Navionics map chart app.

Fishing kings is usually a matter of luck or perseverance.  In pretty much every king fishery I have fished, it is simply a matter of putting in your time.  The longer your bait is in the water, the greater the chance you will catch a fish.  I put in over 40 rod hours to catch two kings last year…but it was also the first time I tried it.  Liquid management is the KEY!!!!  If you go to shore for any reason, you will burn a half hour of fishing time.  In the course of the day, I typically drink about 40oz of Gatorade.  Amazingly enough even if I have a cup or two of coffee in the morning, I rarely have to relieve myself more than once. I think I sweat most of it out. 

For the guys, I find it much easier to use a large mouth bottle like a Gatorade (medium or large size) rather than trying to kneel or move around into an unstable position.  I find the sports drinks are better at not only keeping me hydrated but also I seem to cramp up less at the end of the day.  Ok, not probably a piece of advice you find on most fishing pages but I really believe time on water and therefore liquid management is one of the most important factors in maximizing your odds at catching a king.  Everything else is basic.

Okay, my set up for kings:
I will be using a downrigger with at least an 8 pound ball.  I plant to troll small red label herring behind a full sized 11 inch flasher or a large size fish flash.  I typically run my bait about 3 to 4 feet behind my flasher.  When I fish, I plan to fish about 2/3 of the way down to the bottom.  Its hard to say where the salmon run.  My belief from watching set netters on the beach when I used to work at the commercial salmon plant in Ninilchik is that the salmon tend to take the easiest route up the inlet.  That means when the tide is going out and flowing the fastest, they will be hugging the shoreline and closer to the bottom where the current is slower.  When the tide is moving North, they will be higher in the water column and farther off shore to catch the current.

Having said that, the salmon tend to typically run closer to the shoreline.  When I bought salmon in the area, the drift boat gillnetters rarely brought back king salmon, the beach setnetters slayed them.

After all of that, my best advice is to watch the powerboats and go to the depth you see them hooking up at…simple.

If you don’t have a downrigger, that shouldn’t be a problem.  I caught all my kings in the area before I used downriggers.  I do have some advice though.  I would use at least a 6 oz if not a 10 oz banana trolling sinker. First this allows you better control of your bait.  It also allows you to troll closer to the bottom meaning you increase your chances of hooking a halibut though since you are fishing in 20 to 50 feet of water, the halibut will just as likely hit something trolled in the mid water column.  If you have never caught a halibut on a salmon rod in shallow water, you are in for a treat.  They fight hard and make some killer runs. 

Also keep in mind that if you plan on hitting the derby, use heavier gear.  I plan on running 30 pound mono with 50 pound fluorocarbon leader.  My attitude is it is NOT sportfishing, it’s a competition with money on the line.  Besides, the heavier leader gives you a better shot at landing a halibut.  I also think the thicker line imparts more action to the herring when trolled behind a flasher.  Last year we would have lost one of the kings since I screwed up the net job but the heavier gear saved us. 

Which brings us to the net.  One of the first lessons I learned is you MUST net your own fish.  So everyone needs a net capable of landing a 30 pound or better fish.

Bait choices. 
This time of year, the fish I cut open were stuffed with sandlances and hooligan.  I plan to troll green or red label herring though one of my kings took a large purple label herring.  I brine my herring to firm them up and I also rig them whole.  Buying the bait and brining them is important for a few reasons.  One as I mentioned is to firm them up.  The second is you can add scent if you like...I've added shrimp oil for example.  But the most important reason is it will RUIN your day if you rely on a pack of bait or two, get on the water, open the pack and discover the bait is poor quality and soft.  Save yourself the trouble and check the bait quality BEFORE you are on the water.  DAMHIK...

Cut plugs don’t last as long in my opinion.  I am under sworn secrecy not to put how I rig the herring on the internet but I am “allowed” to show those I fish with how to do it.  Otherwise just buy one of the herring helmets or extra bait and cut plug them.

Another trick I use when rigging a double hook rig for trolling herring is that I hang back the second hook at least one bait length behind the bait, sometimes longer.  I’ve seen enough underwater videos where the salmon strike the bait but come up short.  The hang back hook often “lines” the short striker. 

I’m no expert but everything I have read tells me that Kings prefer a slow large roll over a faster tight spinning bait which the cohos prefer. 

I’m a bait kinda guy.  Always have been.  But I would have 90% confidence trolling a spoon or a streamer fly behind flasher.  I also use lots of herring or sardine gel (not the oil).  I apply it generously to the flasher rather than on the lure.  I also apply the gel even when I am trolling herring.

Finally ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use premium hooks...well use premium EVERYTHING.  Line, ball bearing swivels, etc.  I tend to rig a 5/0 or 6/0 gamaktsu Octopus hooks on the top hook if I am using green label herring and a 4/0 trailing hook.  If I plan on using red label herring, I use 4/0 on top and 3/0 or 4/0 trailer.  the larger hook on top is so it holds the bait better.  Cut plug or rigged whole, I only insert the top hook into the bait and let the trailer hook just trail behind.  I wouldn't hesitate to use owners or other premium hooks.  I prefer the red hooks. 

LAUNCH Location:
I caught kings launching from Both Deep Creek and Whiskey Gulch.  BUT if you are fishing the Anchor Point derby, you are limited to launching out of Whiskey Gulch.  I can’t recall the exact boundaries, but since it’s the “Anchor Point” derby, they are trying to get people to launch out of Anchor Point.  I guess you can launch from Anchor Point and start your fishing drifting North.  But that’s a bad idea.  That means you have to start at low tide and let the current carry you North, then south on the way back.  But that means launching at low tide.  The water seemed like it was a MILE away from your vehicle at low tide.  I am going to launch out of Whiskey Gulch.  The beach is steeper there so the difference between low and high tide is only 20 or 30 yards if I recall correctly.

That's an awesome write-up, Rudy. You've answered a lot of the questions I had, and some that I didn't know I had. I intend to be there to get the season started off right. My flyfishing experience won't help me much, so I'll go all in with bait and scents. Which leads me to what may seem an idiotic question.  When you write that you brine your herring to firm them up, I think about how I brine fowl to tenderize them for cooking. Same process? A basic salt-solution soak in an airtight ziploc? Or is this brining you do something else entirely? I'm intrigued by this.

I'm sure I'll have more pertinent questions as I mull this over and time draws closer. Mostly just wanted to thank you for stoking the embers of my fish fever. -- not that they needed it.  My Revo made it to Anchorage yesterday, and my checkbook was lightened considerably today.

Damn Rudy,  you must be really motivated. After reading your post.  my brain hurts.
  You do put it out there.
   I hope you and several others will make a good showing at Calcutta this May.I'd love to be out with you in my outback.Don't see it happening. but you never know.....
   Best of luck to you. We'll all be watching for the results.

Im a little confused with the tides. How do you tell when Slack is? How long does it last? Lets say that High tide is at Noon. That means the water will be slack at noon right? And continue to be slack up until an hour or two before low tide?

Mark- I'm trying to get motivated.  Its just been hell at work and I still have a few personal issues I am working through.  This helps me to at least think about fiahing and something fun and the season is getting CLOSE!  Woohoo!!

AKfishergal, here a brining how to that I try to follow.
http://www.salmonuniversity.com/ol_brining_herring.html

Matt- The simple answer is "sort of".  I'm going into too much detail but its good to know at least the fundamentals and why something might be just a little different than what "common" knowledge is.  As far as the tides, keep in mind the tide tables are always just estimates.  Wind speed, river out flow, all sorts of things affect the tides.  Also keep in mind the tide tables are for a specific point on a map.  As I stated above, the tide/current stops closer to shore before it stops offshore.  When we used to fish this area in a powerboat, we could troll for kings until the current just about stoppped.  Then we would run 3 to 10 miles off shore and the current would still be flowing for an hour or more beofre it slacked up giving us time to catch a two halibut for a limit.

Take a look at these three pictures.  I just took them from my Navionics app for iphone.  The first is the map of the area.  Note the "T" which is where the tide is estimated for.  Notice the "c" which is where the current table is for.  Note that the "c" is further offshore than the "t".


So here is the tide graph.  It just turns out its at its lowest tide.  Most people think equate that to "slack tide".  Well its not.  Notice on the current chart that the current doesn't stop until 10:45 or a full hour later.  The current will be a lot slower near shore but offshore, the current is still running.  You can visualize water rushing into or out of the inlet, its going to slow down where there is more friction in shallow water and where there is a shoreline. 





Like I said, don't overthink it but the reason I am telling you this is when I first went out, even though I knew all of this from my powerboating experience out here, I started to panic when at "low tide" the current was NOT slacking.  I second guessed myself and started trying to paddle up current thinking I miss judged the tide.  Well it turns out I cut my day short by an hour or more because when the tide did turn, I got to the take point much earlier than I planned on, plus I didn't enjoy myself AND the current did eventually turn but and hour later.

Had I realized this while on the water, I would have gotten in more fishing time and not wasted so much effort and worries thinking I was going to end up in Homer instead of fishing. 

One final thing, MAKE SURE you know where the launch is...exactly.  One day I set my sights on a point of land thinking that was the launch.  Miss judged it by only a quarter mile and I paddled hard for nearly an hour to make the quarter mile since the current was flowing hard against me.  I guess I could have beached it and walked it but that's no fun dragging a yak a quarter mile in the surf or worse on rocks especially at the end of the day.

I don't mind sharing info, but PLEASE if someone sees an error or has a different experience, CHIME IN! I  grew up in Kenai and fished this water many times.  But so many of the "problems" are moot when you have an outboard engine.  I don't want to make a mistake and cause a problem for anyone.

The good news is that during the king season, its not crowded but there are always a few boats around.  In addition they always are looking at you in amazement so I am sure if anything happened to go wrong, you would be noticed immediately.  I mentioned some of the safety gear I carry on other posts, an important one I missed is a safety flag.  I HIGHLY recommend one.  I recommend the visicarbon pro flag.  Pricey but its compact cool, and you can just insert it into one of the useless for fishing rod holders behind you.  No additional mount required.  There's a enough traffic and sort of like motorcycles on a highway, I just don't think most power boaters expect you out there and you definitely want to be noticed!

Matt, You had asked about my kayak set up.  There's a lot of good info here for that.  Mine is pretty simple but maybe  I can save you a few problems I had.

First the set up:



1) Fish finder is not mandatory for Kings.  You will need it if you plan on using a downrigger.  I would think snagging bottom with cable or 100lbs spectra line in fast current would be a very bad thing.  If you don't carry a GPS, it also helps to see far out you are.  I.e.  if you need to be a mile out to catch a halibut, you can note that in X ft of water you are at least a mile out.

2) I LOVE the folbe rod holders.  The ONLY way to go in my opinion.  BUT the flush mount is not enclosed.  What I mean by that is the tube that sticks into the hull is not capped on the end.  I had one of my scotty mounts like that.  I haven't capped it yet but I need to find a way.  Its basically a hole in your hull if you don't.  The folbe holders are great because once you have a fish on, the pressure of the fish make it hard to remove from standard rod holders.  This is triple the case when you are on a kayak versus standing up in a powerboat.  Even then, some of the rod holders are a pain in the butt to get the rod out of.  Be careful you aren't drilling into the rudder cables when you cut the holes out!!!!!  Get inside your Yak and make sure your rod when its in the rod holder clears your legs.  Most of the salmon rods we use up here have long handles.  When i use a downrigger the rod is tips is on the other side of the kayak.  So keep that in mind.  I like it that way since i can see the whole rod in front of me. Also since the the rod tip is typically pointed up and the handle down, unless the handle is on the outside of the Kayak it intrudes inside the yak into my legs space otherwise.  There's a lot of different solutions you'll just have to see what works best for you


3) Ram Mount.  I initially bought it for a rod holder.  But what I have discovered is that you cannot tighten the down on the ball enough to keep the rod holder in position.  I think its partly due to the leverage of the longer rod and the fact that when I am trolling, I am often dragging big gear like an 11 inch flasher.  Its not as much of an issue when using a downrigger but I did have a small halibut when I was using braided line strike and yank the rod holder down and I almost lost a rod.  Others have said they tighten down enough, I have never been able to do it even using tools.  Go with the Scotty or Folbe rod mounts in my humble opinion.

4) If you place the downrigger like i did, make sure you can reach into the hull to fasten it.  I drilled two extra holes since the first time I placed it, I just couldn't reach the bolts to place the screw.  That was a bummer.  I probably could have done it but I was in hurry.

I deemed the downrigger an important enough piece of equipment that i gave up cargo space to semi permanently mount it to my yak.  The 360 base not only makes it easier to access and position exactly where I want it to be, but raises it high enough to barely clear the edge of the yak.  Keep that in mind when you begin mounting.  The plastic is thin there so I cut out a cutting board as a backing on the inside.  It worked perfectly for me.  The ball hangs only inches from the edge so there is no additional tippiniess factor.

Here's a pic, but i fish it off the other side since then I can reach behind me and crank it up with out turning around.  I'm pretty flexible for a out of shape old guy. 

Are you putting a team together, or is it an individual contest?  Can we plan to meet up with the famous Kardinal?

Definitely ready to catch some fish....

Are you putting a team together, or is it an individual contest?  Can we plan to meet up with the famous Kardinal?

Definitely ready to catch some fish....

Haha.  Famous?  Not sure about that.  Keep in mind last year was my first full year fishing out of a kayak.  The only difference between me and most other kayak fisherman is I bought a gopro and I actually like editing video though I am still no good at it.  It takes almost as much patience as catching a king to stare through hours of videos to edit it down to 3 to 5 minutes.  lol. 

It's a per boat event but we put four kayakers into the tournament one last year and entered one fish. The first four ever!   I wouldn't mind showing up in force and entering a few more fish.  I am hoping to begin hitting the Deep Creek Salt the last week of April.  I may take a few days off if the weather allows and camp out down there a few extra days starting in May. 

I'm hoping in Mid April to begin the season in Whittier by dropping shrimp pots and just getting my sea legs back.  I'm not sure my schedule is going to allow for that. 

I wouldn't mind planning a day or two the first week of May for a get together to test fish the inlet.  If the roads are good, I'd almost suggest we meet in Whittier as early as mid April.  It's a lot less stressful kayaking then the flowing currents in Cook Inlet.  I am really hoping this extra snow doesn't  mess with the launch sites.  the launch at Whiskey Gulch is one steep drive down to the beach.

As the days get closer, let's plan on meeting up!  I would love to meet everyone.   

What brand is your down rigger? Have you been happy with it?

The Famous Kardinal. ----- nice sounding handle..
You might have to change your avatar.

You've come a long way in a year...this 2nd one should be awesome. Keep the priority in line...and don't let "stuff" get in the way. Good luck this year.....



"Ouch my leg,ouch my leg"

What brand is your down rigger? Have you been happy with it?

It's a Penn. I use it since I stole it off of my 21 ft center console.  Parts and such are easier with the canon and Scotty rigs locally. I think the main difference is horizontally mounted reel or vertically. The penn is vertical. It limits me to fishing one side of the boat but I don't think that is an issue. Since the clutch for lowering is on the handle side I have no issues.

Since I had mine I had to make it work. You will have much greater flexibility. I'm sure there are better ways but I did mount the same downrigger in a more temporary fashion to my Mini x and it was solid enuf to crank up shrimp pots from500ft. I think it's in my April blogs.


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I would love to join up for this outing if I get my kayak in time. If not then I will have to dig out my cataraft frame and take it down there. Which may not be a bad idea if someone gets in trouble or tired and wants a tow back to the launch site, or a vessel to carry any gear or coolers. I could be like the tender for the kayak fleet.

Thanks for all the info Rudy. I got that Navionics App for my phone too. I think I understand it. I wish it came with a help tutorial. So looking at the current chart, the arrows are telling you which direction the flow is right? Its not saying how the arrows are orientated though. Im guessing they are saying North and south flows.

And Slack tide really doesnt mean a total stop in current right? Just means its slowest then.

I have had a couple of the cannon downriggers before. Lake trolls and the mini troll. I was not happy with either. The line counter often didnt work, The drags wore out fast. The mini just fell apart out on the water one day. So Im looking at swithching brands now.

This might be a dumb idea, but could you anchor out and drop a quick fish down, kind of like a backtrolling setup and let it sit there? Im thinking the ocean current might be just like the river current. That might extend our time on the water with out worring about fighting the current. Seems to me we could do that just off the beach in about 30-50 ft of water.

Thanks for all the info Rudy. I got that Navionics App for my phone too. I think I understand it. I wish it came with a help tutorial. So looking at the current chart, the arrows are telling you which direction the flow is right? Its not saying how the arrows are orientated though. Im guessing they are saying North and south flows.

And Slack tide really doesnt mean a total stop in current right? Just means its slowest then.

I have had a couple of the cannon downriggers before. Lake trolls and the mini troll. I was not happy with either. The line counter often didnt work, The drags wore out fast. The mini just fell apart out on the water one day. So Im looking at swithching brands now.

This might be a dumb idea, but could you anchor out and drop a quick fish down, kind of like a backtrolling setup and let it sit there? Im thinking the ocean current might be just like the river current. That might extend our time on the water with out worring about fighting the current. Seems to me we could do that just off the beach in about 30-50 ft of water.

I think the arrow would be pointing straight up and down if its was exactly North South.  So its pretty much North South but not exactly.  Well there has to be a point where the tide is at a dead stop since it does change direction.  Depending on what you mean by stopped, I'd guess that stage lasts about 30 to 45 minutes.

I don't drop anchor with my powerboat.  I'm not going to drop anchor out there in my kayak. Okay I am a wimp, but it such a pain in the butt even in a small powerboat.  I guess I might be convinced of giving it a try at dead slack for a little while but it would be for halibut.  A part of my rationale is that the power boaters could do what you are talking about, but none of them do for the kings.   The guys on this forum do anchor in rivers fairly deep for sturgeon in the rivers.  I just think its one more thing that can go wrong and one more thing I have to carry.  Whether it flips your kayak or its simply breaks a fish off, I don't need the problems given my current skill level and experience. 

Also keep in mind that 30 ft of water is a half mile out even from the steepest part of the area which is Whiskey Gulch.  South of Anchor Point, 30 ft is like 2 miles out.  It's the complete opposite of Seward or Whittier where its 500 ft deep 100 yards from shore.  That's one reason you won't need a downrigger if you don't have one. 

I wouldn't worry about it.  You will be AMAZED at the Hobie Mirage drive's efficiency.  If you are playing with the NAvionics app, keep in mind the currents are tides are HUGE right now.  It usually won't be that bad.

As far as the downriggers go, you have to buy a full sized saltwater compatible downrigger.  Other than maybe the fact you won't be trolling 5mph in a kayak, its the real deal trolling real gear in real water.  The mini and freshwater stuff isn't going to work...at least not very long. I'll be using 8 pound ball minimum and for another top secret application, I may step up to a 10 or maybe even a 12 pound weight. 

Beartoothclaw- Definitely come on down!  I saw driftboats out there halibut fishing!  I did it with a 9 ft mini-x.  That catacraft has to be every bit as good! 

Hey, that was me out there halibut fishing with my pals in a drift boat! OK, maybe that time it wasn't, but "rowing for halibut" was what got me thinking about kayak fishing before I knew it formally existed. We've regularly boated +75# butts, and lost one barn door over these last ten years.  I knew I couldn't manage the drift boat solo, but that I was doing just find solo with a kayak...  Next thing I know, the Google reveals this whole world already exists. 

Come mid-April, I'm going to post up a thread to organize a meet-up and shake-out float. Just skills, not fishing. Practice some cold water capsize drills, etc. Whittier would be good if the wind isn't blowing, so obviously it's weather contingent. With folks new to kayaks and folks new to kayak fishing in the area, it would be good to suss out who's who and what's what. It'd be good to do this before the Anchor Point derby.

In the meanwhile, I've got this brand new Revo sitting in my living room. So I'm going to take it over to Bartlett's next kayak night to get it wet, try out the Mirage drive, and start doing the capsize drills that I've done with every other human-powered boat I own.  Hasn't kept me out of the water, but it has kept me around to launch another day.  My head tells me this will be an easier boat to flip back upright and re-enter, but my body needs to confirm. 

I'm gonna be ready for Anchor Point. Only 8 weeks 'til then, I think...  Time to meet The Famous Kardinal face-to-face.