NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => Drillin' & Cuttin' => Topic started by: PetitPoisson on September 17, 2017, 03:01:07 AM
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I made my Gear Track today. Aluminium with plastic backing plate. I also did a tutorial for it. It's in pdf form and the size is 2.39 MB. I can't seem to upload it to the site. If anybody wants it, shoot me a pm with your email and I'll send it to you. Or if anybody knows how to resize it, you're welcome to do so. I have absolutely no idea how to make it smaller?
Anyhow, here's a bit of what's in the pdf.
Cheers,
PP
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Nice project. I need to get some of these and have been weighing options.
I'm wondering. if you thread both the track and the backing plate, does the thickness of the kayak throw off the alignment of the threads? Do you use a nut under the backing plate as well? (I would guess so).
Thanks for sharing your build. It helps those who follow quite a bit.
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...if you thread both the track and the backing plate, does the thickness of the kayak throw off the alignment of the threads? Do you use a nut under the backing plate as well? (I would guess so)...
My paint is still curing, so I can't answer that just yet.
The thickness of the kayak material might have an effect on trying to keep the track/kayak/backing plate tight together. I may need to drill the threads from the aluminium track portion but I don't think so. When the screw is all the way through, there's a small shoulder on the screw that lets it spin freely once it is fully seated in the track. So I don't think I'm going to run into the problem...
I'm not planning on running a nut under the backing plate but have enough screw length to do this if required. I won't know until it's mounted and fully in use. If you look at the wide track from YakAttack, they run 2 rows of screws. From what I've read, many people install these with just self tapping screws and no backing plate. I'm pretty sure my 3/8" thick backing plate will be more than adequate once some marine sealant/adhesive is in place and they are tightened down.
If a person did this without tapping and drilled slightly larger holes. The screw would drop through and a lock nut with a small washer could be installed to tighten it all together. I'm really trying to avoid the need to swing a ratchet/wrench around inside the kayak. There's not a lot of room in there to make this happen.
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I just purchased a Hobie TI and am starting to consider my options for gear mounting. I have been looking at similar DIY track since I think the cost for Geartrac is absolutely ridiculous. Looking forward to hearing how this turns out.
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For backing plates I like to use tee nuts when possible. Takes a little more prep work but is a nice clean and easy install.
https://goo.gl/images/MZdnqs (https://goo.gl/images/MZdnqs)
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So do you push them into a backing board or how are you using the t-nut?
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Still haven't mounted them... Got way too busy with work!
...I think the cost for Geartrac is absolutely ridiculous. Looking forward to hearing how this turns out...
I think the costs are insane as well. However, I will say this project takes a little time. It's very easy to see why the prices are what they are if they are not being manufactured in China (or similar).
I did toss these in the oven at 250 degrees for half an hour (twice) in hopes of speeding up the paint cure time. My wife was thrilled that I used the new oven for this... The toaster oven wasn't large enough for the longer track. What else was I supposed to use?!? :laugh: Anyhow, it certainly seems to be well dried now. Obviously, time will tell...
For backing plates I like to use tee nuts when possible. Takes a little more prep work but is a nice clean and easy install.
https://goo.gl/images/MZdnqs (https://goo.gl/images/MZdnqs)
Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to have the points of a T-nut digging directly into the inside of my kayak... I wanted the backing strip simply to disperse the stresses over a larger area.
You didn't specify, so you may have been thinking "a T-nut in addition to the backing strip". I don't know how easy it would be to bury the points of a T-nut into that UHMW (ultra-high molecular weight) plastic strip. That stuff is pretty solid! I suppose a person could drill it and then use a Dremel with a fine carving tip to notch out some spaces for the points to sit into. I'm not sure the screw head would allow for enough torque to seat those points. A person would also want to make sure they used Stainless Steel T-Nuts as the salt water would destroy the Zinc ones in no time at all.
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Great job on using a DIY approach.
There really shouldn't be any reason to have the aluminum threaded.
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I think the costs are insane as well. However, I will say this project takes a little time. It's very easy to see why the prices are what they are if they are not being manufactured in China (or similar).
I did toss these in the oven at 250 degrees for half an hour (twice) in hopes of speeding up the paint cure time. My wife was thrilled that I used the new oven for this... The toaster oven wasn't large enough for the longer track. What else was I supposed to use?!? :laugh: Anyhow, it certainly seems to be well dried now. Obviously, time will tell...
Speaking of China, a google or amazon search turns up the China-direct equivalent of GT90 and GT175 track. They looked like they would need a few more hold-down holes drilled but other wise could be promising. A little spendier than this option though.
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So do you push them into a backing board or how are you using the t-nut?
Yea sorry I should have clarified. I use SS tee nuts and a piece of cutting board. The holes in the cutting board are pre-drilled and then I cinch it all together pressing the points into the backing while it is on my bench making sure the tee nuts dig in uniformly. I'm not sure about how well the points would penetrate into a harder material but I don't necessarily think that a harder material is needed.
With some creative use of strings and magnets you can use the tee nut method to get backing plates under rod holders that there is no way to get a washer/nut on.
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For those of you who might like to go the DIY Route. GO FOR IT!!! I would absolutely do this again when/if I purchase another kayak or find that I require more on this one :laugh:.
The DIY track with the UHMW plastic backing strip is strong. REALLY STRONG! I can pretty much lift the entire kayak (mine's a tandem, so it's a beast) by 1 Scotty gear head mounted to the track. I imagine if I had balanced it better when I took the photo, I could have lifted it completely off the ground. There was virtually no flex, so a big fish hammering the rod as it's sitting in a rod holder shouldn't cause any issue.
Little notes and some things I would do differently:
1: Do NOT thread the Aluminium track ::). I had to drill out the treads as it was too much of a PITA to try and connect it all.
2: Drill the holes that go through the kayak a little larger (not a lot larger) than the holes in the aluminium track. This also gives a space for your sealant to squeeze into. Reason for the slightly larger holes is mentioned in item #4.
3: The larger drill bit I used to counter sink the screw head holes should have be a little larger than the opening of the track. If you look at the Yakattack track you'll notice they did this... There's a reason for it and this is also mentioned in item #4.
4: I used a drill press so my holes are absolutely straight. The thickness of the kayak is NOT uniform... some areas are as much a double the thickness of others. It would cause the holes in the UHMW strip to be misaligned if I tightened the screws too much too soon. It was close but apparently my holes were just a little too tight! ;D and the screw heads/screw driver would, at times, just barely nick the side of the track. Which in turn scratched my nicely painted surface :embarassed:. If I had used a slightly larger drill bit when I did the countersinking, I would have nicked the edges along the length of the entire track. That would have given that smidgen of additional clearance needed.
4: The kayak is thicker than I thought it was (in some areas). I used a 1" screw length and it just protrudes through the back of my UHMW strip. If a person wanted to add a washer and a nut, they will want to use 1-1/4" long screws. I think that would be overkill as it's plenty strong as it is.
5: I used a marine sealant/adhesive in every hole. I've read that some people do this and others don't. I did a general snug down of the track then went back and removed 1 screw at a time and squirt some sealant into the hole and tightened it all back up. This is where the nicking of the track really became apparent.
That's about it! Now to make a battery box and a 2 mounts for the rod holders...
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All 4 tracks and the nicks I mentioned...
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I should also mention that I did cut the track at a an angle and then sanded/filed the edges. The hard 90 degree angle is a bit sharp. Aluminium cuts really easy, just "DO NOT" use the fence if using a table saw. It will bind and kick back if you do.
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Awesome! Thank you for all the details! Question: So it looks like you just used screws to self thread into the UHMW pilot holes? Is that correct?
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Awesome! Thank you for all the details! Question: So it looks like you just used screws to self thread into the UHMW pilot holes? Is that correct?
No, though I suppose a person could use a self tapping screw.
1: Tape the aluminium track and the UHMW strip together (so they don't move when you drill them).
2: Drill through the aluminium track and UHMW using a drill bit slightly smaller than your screw. I drilled a hole drilled every 1-3/4".
2: Separate them and tap threads into the UHMW. (I tapped the aluminium and the UHMW when they were still taped together... DON'T do that)
3: Re-drill the holes in the aluminium (NOT the UHMW) slightly larger than the screw. (I needed to re-drill the aluminium track when I went to assemble it all... Ooops! Learn from my mistake! ;))
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Great job on using a DIY approach.
There really shouldn't be any reason to have the aluminum threaded.
Thanks INSAYN. Yeah, tapping the Aluminium was a mistake. I needed to go back and drill out 28 tapped holes ::).
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There are some places on some kayaks where the inside of the kayak's gunwale is flat enough, and the thickness of the hull is consistent enough, to use a threaded backer bar. An example is when mounting a section of gear track on the bottom of one of the trays on the gunwale of an Outback, where there is a large flat area inside the gunwale. However, in many kayaks the inside of the gunwale is curved enough, and the thickness of the hull varies enough, that if you use a threaded backer bar, the bar is likely to end up contacting the hull only in the right front corner and left rear corner, or something similar. In these situations, I prefer to use stainless steel fender washers and nylock nuts to attach gear tracks and other gear, because each fender washer can lie at a different angle. I bend the fender washers to fit the curvature of the inside of the gunwale.
But in some kayaks, the inside of the gunwale is so curved that fender washers will lie at a significant angle to their bolts, and nuts will only hit them on one side. An example is the inside of the gunwale of a Revolution, which is quite narrow and curved. In these situations, a good solution is to mount gear tracks from the outside with screws, which is quick and easy, and doesn't require a lot of contortion and finangling to thread and tighten nuts inside the gunwale. I have mounted wide (1.75") Yak Attack gear tracks on the gunwales of my Revolution, and have used them for years with no problems whatsoever.
But the best solution is to pressure kayak manufacturers to mold gear tracks into the gunwales of their kayaks as original equipment. I'm talking to you, Hobie! Hobie finally included gear tracks as standard equipment in its Compass kayak. Now it needs to add them to the Revolution and the Outback.
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Pmmpete, lots of good information there for others that may have the style of boats you mention.
Hopefully Hobie does start adding tracks to the rest of their line. There's many uses for them other than just fishing components. There's still an awful lot of boats out there without tracks (Not just Hobie). The reason I wanted to post my DIY is so that others can see how I did it (I'm sure there's many ways to accomplish it). Hopefully it's enough to give someone the courage to try this. If you've already got a few tools... I'm only into 4 feet of track for under $40 Canadian and a few hours of my time.
I thought about doing the backing with aluminium bar stock. I was concerned that it might be too rigid to form to the inside. I was thinking the general curvature of the kayak would be the issue. It hadn't even occurred to me that the kayak would be as uneven inside as it is. Now that I know what I do... I'm really glad I chose to go with the UMHW for the backing. It seems well suited for this task as it flexible (somewhat) and appears to have made a very good seal along the entire length of the track.
People do need to pay attention. UMHW is quite hard but it is still plastic... using a power screw driver to tighten this down would probably strip out the threads.
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I too have sought a cheaper solution than GearTrac. The GT90 looks suspiciously like sail track. My choice was -- coincidentally -- sail track made to mount on masts for hoisting and lowering sails. It is designed for high loads and is pre-drilled for rivets or #6 screws.
$35 for 8 feet. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/rigging/sailtrackbb/index.htm
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/duckbbs/hardware/rigging/sailtrackbb/track-300.jpg)
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Of course there are no screws supplied so that may be where the extra expense of Geartrac is found. ::)
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I too have sought a cheaper solution than GearTrac. The GT90 looks suspiciously like sail track. My choice was -- coincidentally -- sail track made to mount on masts for hoisting and lowering sails. It is designed for high loads and is pre-drilled for rivets or #6 screws.
$35 for 8 feet. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/rigging/sailtrackbb/index.htm
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/duckbbs/hardware/rigging/sailtrackbb/track-300.jpg)
How did that workout with the curved back?
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The GT90 and GT175 by Yakattack also have curved backs. see below
(https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-z9gt0fu/products/216/images/439/GT90-12-2__48015.1435014901.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
This puts the edges in contact with the hull because most surfaces on the kayak are slightly curved. I have yet to install any. I have been too busy fishing and doing yard work. I also may use it on my CNC router table for clamping work pieces. It seems more economical than any t-track I have found. I also will be using it on the mast for my sailing rig I am building for my cedar strip canoe and kayaks. http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/clc-sailrig-kayak-canoe-sailing-rig.html
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I too have sought a cheaper solution than GearTrac. The GT90 looks suspiciously like sail track. My choice was -- coincidentally -- sail track made to mount on masts for hoisting and lowering sails. It is designed for high loads and is pre-drilled for rivets or #6 screws.
$35 for 8 feet. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/rigging/sailtrackbb/index.htm
Looks like it should work!
2 things you may want to consider before you pop a bunch of little holes in your kayak.
1: YakAttack drills holes every 1-3/4". I don't know why they do this, but they do. Manufacturers typically try to get by with as little cost as they possibly can... That sail track looks to have a slightly farther spacing. It's easy enough to add a few more mounting holes if you need to.
2: I like the curved base on the sail track better than the track I used from LeeValley. The contact points for the sail track appear to be pretty narrow. The YakAttack contact points are at the widest part of the track.
If you do make some DIY gear tracks with the sail track. Please post your build so others can see and learn from it. Feel free to hijack this thread so it keeps it all together.
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Being familiar with product design, I doubt there is any black magic in the 1 3/4" spacing. Probably it is the default spacing from the track mfg that supplies the track. There ARE good reasons for various spacings based on the rated load of the rail, area of the mating surface and tear-out specs of the material but usually an OEM just asks the application engineer at the track company what spacing they should use and they go with the recommendation. It's not worth it usually for an OEM to spend the extra dollars on R&D to determine things like track bolt spacing when they can push off those costs to their supplier.
I like the curved bottom of the sail-track better because it gives a space for sealant to live. Most folks torque down flat bottom parts too much and squeeze out too much sealant. If you get track from non-marine intended sources it usually won't have this curve.
This might be a good application to use Butyl tape as a sealant. It starts out thick so it can accommodate a certain amount of hull curvature, it is compressive rather than adhesive so seems like it would get around the "doesn't stick to PE" problem. I'd recommend roughing up the contact area with a bit of sandpaper to give a better mechanical bite. After the part is bolted down, any excess sealant squeezes out and is easily cleaned up without making a mess on the boat. I've used it lots of time on other boats and plan on using it on my yak when I get to installing inspection ports and flush deck rod holders. Has anyone else tried it out on a yak?