NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => For Safety's Sake => Topic started by: Fishboy on April 02, 2009, 07:32:57 AM
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OK, I've been going back through the threads trying to come up with a reasonable summary of options for achieving Fishesfromtupperware's goal:
To be comfortable fishing in the ocean, and to be able to huli/fall out and climb back in and and continue to fish comfortably.
Options appear to be:
Drysuit with relief zipper with fleece underlayers and warm foot coverings. PRO: Dryest option, least binding. CON: Most expensive, and can get hot.
Wetsuit with relief zipper, layers under, upper layers especially if Farmer John to protect against armpit heat loss, and dry top, various socks, booties, shoes. PRO: Less expensive than dry suit. Warmer under immersion conditions and adds to buoyancy -- safety factor. CON: IF less than 7 mil, can still leave you very cold quickly in ocean water. Also subject to serious heat loss in wind, requiring rain paints, etc. At 7 mil, can be a roasting oven.
Waders and drytop with socks, pant and shirt layers under waders, belt, and the drytop. Layers can include a 3 mil wetsuit as well as various fleece and hydroskin options. PRO: Properly assembled ensemble can provide good, dry protection in a dunking at less cost than a drysuit, especially for those who already have waders. CON: Relief issues scream for attention here; without a zipper/valve you would be open to disaster if you huli while all unzipped during a "nature event." Breathable waders also subject to severe heat loss in wind, requiring rain pants or another layer.
When all is said and done, it would seem a dry or semi drysuit like the Kokatat Super Nova may be worth the expense. It offers relief, leakage protection and with judicious layering can keep you warm and comfortable, with occasional venting to bleed off heat, and with the least restrictive characteristics.
Any comments, additions, clarifications most welcome. I'm trying to assemble my kit at the least initial expense, but saving a few bucks at the cost of roasting, freezing, peeing myself or feeling like I am bound up like the Michelin tire boy doesn't make sense.
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OK, I've been going back through the threads trying to come up with a reasonable summary of options for achieving Fishesfromtupperware's goal:
To be comfortable fishing in the ocean, and to be able to huli/fall out and climb back in and and continue to fish comfortably.
Options appear to be:
Drysuit with relief zipper with fleece underlayers and warm foot coverings. PRO: Dryest option, least binding. CON: Most expensive, and can get hot.
Some people find latex gaskets to be the "most binding". I don't find a drysuit much hotter than the alternatives. Think of it this way ... you're dressing for immersion. The insulation you have on (wetsuit, drysuit, or otherwise) should be similar. So heat issues should be similar, at least under normal dry conditions while you're sitting on your yak. The one benefit of drysuits is that to me, they don't seem to have the same evaporative cooling that you have in wetsuits. Wetsuit can get really cold once you get wet, then are sitting back on your kayak.
Wetsuit with relief zipper, layers under, upper layers especially if Farmer John to protect against armpit heat loss, and dry top, various socks, booties, shoes. PRO: Less expensive than dry suit. Warmer under immersion conditions and adds to buoyancy -- safety factor. CON: IF less than 7 mil, can still leave you very cold quickly in ocean water. Also subject to serious heat loss in wind, requiring rain paints, etc. At 7 mil, can be a roasting oven.
I don't layer under the bottoms. It's extremely difficult to get a layer on down there without it bunching up.
Not necessarily warmer under immersion conditions. Again, you should be dressing with the same insulation goals in mind whether you go drysuit or wetsuit.
Lot's of people feel perfectly comfortable in 3 or 5 mm wetsuits in the ocean.
If you're wearing the proper PFD (you are, right?), does the added buoyancy make that much of a difference?
Waders and drytop with socks, pant and shirt layers under waders, belt, and the drytop. Layers can include a 3 mil wetsuit as well as various fleece and hydroskin options. PRO: Properly assembled ensemble can provide good, dry protection in a dunking at less cost than a drysuit, especially for those who already have waders. CON: Relief issues scream for attention here; without a zipper/valve you would be open to disaster if you huli while all unzipped during a "nature event." Breathable waders also subject to severe heat loss in wind, requiring rain pants or another layer.
To me, this is just a variation on the full drysuit. Cheaper. Your mileage may vary. You hit the point when you said "properly assembled". Still, some people don't think there is a 100% proper way to assemble this.
When all is said and done, it would seem a dry or semi drysuit like the Kokatat Super Nova may be worth the expense. It offers relief, leakage protection and with judicious layering can keep you warm and comfortable, with occasional venting to bleed off heat, and with the least restrictive characteristics.
Any comments, additions, clarifications most welcome. I'm trying to assemble my kit at the least initial expense, but saving a few bucks at the cost of roasting, freezing, peeing myself or feeling like I am bound up like the Michelin tire boy doesn't make sense.
Relief issues don't have to be issues. All the above can have relied zippers added.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a cooling apparatus. Kind of like using heat warmers in gloves in the snow. I'd like to be able to add body coolers in my drysuit when it's warm out.
-Allen
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allen
since you mentioned the hand warmers for getting warm. how about ice packs for cooling off. :laugh:
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allen
since you mentioned the hand warmers for getting warm. how about ice packs for cooling off. :laugh:
I thought about that. Tool cold. But then I thought about just setting an icy pack in my lap on the outside ... :o
-Allen
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Holy shrinkage, Batman!
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Ordered a Kokatat Super Nova semi-dry suit from Kokopelli in Ashland.
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You can get cooling vests such as are worn under HazMat suits. Sort of like ice packs, but not as cold. I don't know how comfy they would be under a dry suit. I may give it a try someday.
They are pricey to experiment with, but I have access to several. Here is a link, but I picked it at random after googling 'cooling vest'.
http://www.climatechsafety.com/?gclid=CKiipbWi25kCFRFWagodJQf9XA (http://www.climatechsafety.com/?gclid=CKiipbWi25kCFRFWagodJQf9XA)
-Craig
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Relief issues don't have to be issues. All the above can have relied zippers added.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a cooling apparatus. Kind of like using heat warmers in gloves in the snow. I'd like to be able to add body coolers in my drysuit when it's warm out.
-Allen
I did a quick search at Mountain Soles http://www.mtnsoles.com/ (http://www.mtnsoles.com/), a great repair place in PDX. Here's their price list. Adding a relief zipper would cost almost 3x the cost of my waders :-\
Dry Suit Gasket Replacement
For kayakers and rafters, Mountain Soles offers replacement of latex gaskets (seals) on dry suits, dry tops, and dry bibs. We stock a wide selection of gaskets from OS Systems and Kokatat. For the do-it-yourself folks, we stock gasket replacement kits for sale in our shop (prices listed down below). We also repair tears or holes on Nylon and Waterproof breathable fabrics like Gore-tex.
We now have a limited supply of waterproof breathable fabric booties. We recommend that you come in to our shop and try them on prior to installation if possible. If you are a mail order customer and would like latex or fabric booties, please call and consult with us first about the make and construction of you suit. Gaskets Replaced by Mtn. Soles
Neck $60.00
Wrist (each) $35.00
Wrist (pair) $60.00
Ankle (each) $35.00
Ankle (pair) $65.00
Latex Booties/Socks (installed only as a pair) sizes S, M, L, XL $70.00
Waterproof Breathable Fabric Booties/ Socks (installed only as a pair) sizes S, M, L, XL call to make sure we have your size in stock and to discuss your specific suit. $130.00
Waterproof Relief Zipper (so you can pee) 6″ long. $160.00
Repair of rips & tears- cost varies depending on damage. $20.00 min
*Please note- we do not test dry suits for leaks (such as pin holes). For these kinds of problems we suggest that you send your suit back to the manufacturer and have them test it.
We do not work on diving suits.Gasket Replacement Kits/ Do-it-yourself repair
Kokatat Neck Gasket Replacement Kit (Sm or Lg)* $42.00
Kokatat Wrist Gaskets Replacement Kit (sold in pairs, Sm or Lg)* $36.00
Kokatat Ankle Gaskets Replacement Kit (sold in pairs, one size fits all)* $46.00
*Kokatat Gasket Replacement Kits include gasket(s), sandpaper, Aquaseal glue, 303 Protectant, and instructions.
Seal Saver- extends the life of latex gaskets and rubber products. 100% silicone $5.00
UV Tech- protects watersports equipment from harmful UV rays $8.00
Zip Care- cleans & lubricates all types of zippers $5.00
Zip Tech- lubricates & protects watertight & airtight zippers $6.50
Univeral Repair Kit- for field repairs, 1/4oz. seam grip, 2 repair patches, brush $7.00
Aqua Seal- urethane repair adhesive & sealant 1oz. tube $7.00
Prices subject to change without notice
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160 clams for the opportunity to pee with dignity ... :o
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and thats 160 dollars for you men to relieve yourselves. i could emagine what it would cost to put a larger one in the back for us ladies.
Marilyn
PS. for us washingtonians theres a place in Seattle called Seattle Fabrics that carrys the neopreme rubber and the different weights of gortex and zippers. I havent went up there yet to check out colors and stock availablity.
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I use the waders/drytop combo for protection. For peeing, I just loosen the bottom of the top and pull the top of the waders down. My Simms waders have extra stretchy straps that let me get away with this.
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My cheapo Hodgeman wader straps stretch a little bit but I need to reach up and unclip both of them to be useful. By the time I get off the water, it's an entertaining little scramble to get it all done. And not unlike Wali's 'special' dance either. ;)
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"I don't layer under the bottoms. It's extremely difficult to get a layer on down there without it bunching up."
Allen- I tuck my fleece bottoms into my socks, and tuck my top into my bottoms. This seems to keep me from bunching and wedgies in the dry suit.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a cooling apparatus. Kind of like using heat warmers in gloves in the snow. I'd like to be able to add body coolers in my drysuit when it's warm out.
-Allen
Whenever I get hot in my dry suit, I just dump over and roll up, or lay in the water and scull. I call it "the air conditioner", and it's the only way I've ever found to cool off without taking the suit off! I'm not trying to boast, but that's really what I do (except for in the Willamette. I'd rather just sweat!). I would suggest hopping off the SOT into the water. It will cool you off, and give you good re-entry practice!
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I did a quick search at Mountain Soles http://www.mtnsoles.com/ (http://www.mtnsoles.com/), a great repair place in PDX. Here's their price list. Adding a relief zipper would cost almost 3x the cost of my waders :-\
If you have a kokatat suit, it's better and cheaper to have them install it. I can't remember the exact price, but could get a quote if you need.
J
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"I don't layer under the bottoms. It's extremely difficult to get a layer on down there without it bunching up."
Allen- I tuck my fleece bottoms into my socks, and tuck my top into my bottoms. This seems to keep me from bunching and wedgies in the dry suit.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a cooling apparatus. Kind of like using heat warmers in gloves in the snow. I'd like to be able to add body coolers in my drysuit when it's warm out.
-Allen
Whenever I get hot in my dry suit, I just dump over and roll up, or lay in the water and scull. I call it "the air conditioner", and it's the only way I've ever found to cool off without taking the suit off! I'm not trying to boast, but that's really what I do (except for in the Willamette. I'd rather just sweat!). I would suggest hopping off the SOT into the water. It will cool you off, and give you good re-entry practice!
You know, that makes perfect sense. But every ounce of my being tries to keep me from being IN the water.
-Allen
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"I don't layer under the bottoms. It's extremely difficult to get a layer on down there without it bunching up."
Allen- I tuck my fleece bottoms into my socks, and tuck my top into my bottoms. This seems to keep me from bunching and wedgies in the dry suit.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with a cooling apparatus. Kind of like using heat warmers in gloves in the snow. I'd like to be able to add body coolers in my drysuit when it's warm out.
-Allen
Whenever I get hot in my dry suit, I just dump over and roll up, or lay in the water and scull. I call it "the air conditioner", and it's the only way I've ever found to cool off without taking the suit off! I'm not trying to boast, but that's really what I do (except for in the Willamette. I'd rather just sweat!). I would suggest hopping off the SOT into the water. It will cool you off, and give you good re-entry practice!
You know, that makes perfect sense. But every ounce of my being tries to keep me from being IN the water.
-Allen
LOL.
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I was impressed with Jeff's immersion suit outfit at PC. I'm want to try the dry top/neoprene wader/pfd combo. I'm looking for good dry top make & model suggestions. Would like to buy one but can't afford the $250+ price tag for a new one. Anyone have a used in good condition for sale?
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In the sub $250 range I like Palm stuff. I think it's a little better quality than NRS, which I believe is the only other sub $250 dry top. Check out the Palm Switch. Even though they're a UK company, MTI distributes in the US, and warranties and repairs are handled reasonably through Rainy Pass in Seattle.
Palm's stuff tends to be made from a heavier nylon than the G-Tex stuff. It's a little stiffer, but a bit better for abrasion, but not quite as good for mobility. I sell allot of Palm to WW guys for that reason.
http://shop.aldercreek.com/Outerwear-Apparel/Dry-Tops/Switch-Dry-Top-C70-i678602.html
I'm sure you've thought of this too, but those neo waders are going to be boiling in the summer.
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In the sub $250 range I like Palm stuff. I think it's a little better quality than NRS, which I believe is the only other sub $250 dry top. Check out the Palm Switch. Even though they're a UK company, MTI distributes in the US, and warranties and repairs are handled reasonably through Rainy Pass in Seattle.
Palm's stuff tends to be made from a heavier nylon than the G-Tex stuff. It's a little stiffer, but a bit better for abrasion, but not quite as good for mobility. I sell allot of Palm to WW guys for that reason.
http://shop.aldercreek.com/Outerwear-Apparel/Dry-Tops/Switch-Dry-Top-C70-i678602.html
I'm sure you've thought of this too, but those neo waders are going to be boiling in the summer.
Thanks for the info. I wear a wetsuit for summer salt, jump in the water when I get hot.
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Would like to buy one but can't afford the $250+ price tag for a new one. Anyone have a used in good condition for sale?
Not to steer you away from Alder Creek, but Andy and Bax has some hellified deals on used tops in the basement. I scored a nice Navajo* top that is breathable, has nice seals, a skirt,heavy material and it's not pink for $30.
It really is catch as catch can though and from Coos Bay iit's a looong way to go to find out that they don't have anything worth a durn at that moment.
Ebay has also been very very good to me (although color choice can be somewhat of a challenge)
*I never heard of it either :dontknow:
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
I've been watching Steep and Cheap nearly every day since Yakintup got his. Looking for one for my wifey.
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
Uh-mazing deals! Yeah, that's where I got mine. Extrasport doesn't make them anymore ::), but there are other great deals on stuff like that, you just have to watch it a lot. A word of advice is to create an account and keep yourself logged in so when you find something you want, you don't have to scramble to enter all your info in. When I got mine, they were only offering about 3 in the size and color I wanted so it pays to be quick on the draw on that site.
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
Uh-mazing deals! Yeah, that's where I got mine. Extrasport doesn't make them anymore ::), but there are other great deals on stuff like that, you just have to watch it a lot. A word of advice is to create an account and keep yourself logged in so when you find something you want, you don't have to scramble to enter all your info in. When I got mine, they were only offering about 3 in the size and color I wanted so it pays to be quick on the draw on that site.
Or work night shift. You should see how few of folks are logged in at 3 am. ;D
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Steep and cheap looks like pretty good deals. It's last years or two years old from what I can tell.
How long did you have to wait for a dry top to pop up?
Actually, those Atlas E12 W snowshoes are from 3 years ago.
I'd just make sure everything is first quality, make sure you know what features apply to what year the good was manufactured. It looks to me they buy overstocks after the season. It's kind of like TJ MAX for dudes.
Just make sure the sleeves are the same length etc.
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In the sub $250 range I like Palm stuff. I think it's a little better quality than NRS, which I believe is the only other sub $250 dry top. Check out the Palm Switch. Even though they're a UK company, MTI distributes in the US, and warranties and repairs are handled reasonably through Rainy Pass in Seattle.
Palm's stuff tends to be made from a heavier nylon than the G-Tex stuff. It's a little stiffer, but a bit better for abrasion, but not quite as good for mobility. I sell allot of Palm to WW guys for that reason.
http://shop.aldercreek.com/Outerwear-Apparel/Dry-Tops/Switch-Dry-Top-C70-i678602.html
I'm sure you've thought of this too, but those neo waders are going to be boiling in the summer.
Thanks for the info. I wear a wetsuit for summer salt, jump in the water when I get hot.
In January I'm going to post a special 15% discount for NWKA @ Alder Creek online store. You will just enter ANGLER15 at check out.
I'll post it here when we do it in the next week or two.
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I got the dry top right before extrasport took them off their website earlier this year. I had to watch it A LOT, I'll admit. I was checking it at work so I was on the site almost all day sometimes, waiting for that specific top. It took me about two weeks of watching it religiously to get it. It seems like the put the paddle gear up in the warmer months because I haven't seen much lately. You can also sign up for email updates that will give you hints of what they'll put up for the day, or, if you're really dedicated, you can have them email you every time a new deal is up(which is about every 20 min.).
In January I'm going to post a special 15% discount for NWKA @ Alder Creek online store. You will just enter ANGLER15 at check out.
I'll post it here when we do it in the next week or two.
:o :hello2:
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
Thanks for the heads up when you find a deal. Andy and Bax has some hellified deals on used tops in the basement. I scored a nice Navajo* top that is breathable, has nice seals, a skirt,heavy material and it's not pink for $30.
It really is catch as catch can though and from Coos Bay iit's a looong way to go to find out that they don't have anything worth a durn at that moment.
Ebay has also been very very good to me (although color choice can be somewhat of a challenge)
*I never heard of it either :dontknow:[/quote]
Looks like Alder Crk & Andy & Bax are in the same neighborhood, so the next time I'm in Portland I'll be checking out both places. Looking forward to the Alder Crk sale, may just pick up one of these at that time. Nanook - at which store do you work? Thanks guys. Off for Coos Bay now.
-Paul
(http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/gallery/412_26_12_09_5_51_08.jpeg)
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you should check out our store at Jantzen Beach/Hayden Island. It's got much more stuff than the shop closer to andy and Bax in SE Portland. That shop is more or less just advertising for the bigt one at JB.
I work at the Jantzen Beach store 95% of the time.....one random day a week I'm at the SE shop.
There is also Portland Kayak Co. in SW Portland that would be worth checking out. I think they have stohlquist and immersion research wich are both pretty good brands. I've used allot of IR stuff and been real happy with it.
I'm not sure what the $$ range on that stuff is though.
Speaking of, I have an IR dry top size L i think that I might be able to sell. I can't officially wear anything but Kokatat anymore.
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and thats 160 dollars for you men to relieve yourselves. i could emagine what it would cost to put a larger one in the back for us ladies.
Marilyn
PS. for us washingtonians theres a place in Seattle called Seattle Fabrics that carrys the neopreme rubber and the different weights of gortex and zippers. I havent went up there yet to check out colors and stock availablity.
$12 for a freshette out the front zip, AND you get to stand up to pee. ;)
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I was impressed with Jeff's immersion suit outfit at PC. I'm want to try the dry top/neoprene wader/pfd combo. I'm looking for good dry top make & model suggestions. Would like to buy one but can't afford the $250+ price tag for a new one. Anyone have a used in good condition for sale?
what size are you? I have an IR dry top I might be able to sell. I need to check the size, but I think it's a large.
It is a touch small on me, but not unusable. I'm 6ft 175.
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"Steep and Cheap" (internet outdoor gear wholesaler) has had some smokin deals on dry tops (less than 100$). I am looking for one also, If I find a deal I'll give you a heads up.
Thanks for the heads up when you find a deal. Andy and Bax has some hellified deals on used tops in the basement. I scored a nice Navajo* top that is breathable, has nice seals, a skirt,heavy material and it's not pink for $30.
It really is catch as catch can though and from Coos Bay iit's a looong way to go to find out that they don't have anything worth a durn at that moment.
Ebay has also been very very good to me (although color choice can be somewhat of a challenge)
*I never heard of it either :dontknow:
Looks like Alder Crk & Andy & Bax are in the same neighborhood, so the next time I'm in Portland I'll be checking out both places. Looking forward to the Alder Crk sale, may just pick up one of these at that time. Nanook - at which store do you work? Thanks guys. Off for Coos Bay now.
-Paul
(http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/gallery/412_26_12_09_5_51_08.jpeg)
[/quote]
We've got Palm dry wear at 15% off in January if you're interested.
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Looks like we'll have to wait a bit for the NWKA 15 % discount at our online store. The webmaster put in a bunch of other discounts like the 15% off palm that would stack with the NWKA 15%, and put us out of business. 30% would be awesome for you guys, but bankrupt us :(
We'll have to wait until Feb. I guess. Sorry fellas.
J
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Looks like we'll have to wait a bit for the NWKA 15 % discount at our online store. The webmaster put in a bunch of other discounts like the 15% off palm that would stack with the NWKA 15%, and put us out of business. 30% would be awesome for you guys, but bankrupt us :(
We'll have to wait until Feb. I guess. Sorry fellas.
J
dang! i'd break out the plastic for 30% off!