NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => KayakFishingMagazine.net => Topic started by: polepole on December 16, 2013, 09:08:27 AM
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Wilderness Systems has something cooking for the offshore kayak angler. Check out article for more pics and a video!
http://www.kayakfishingmagazine.net/gear-guide/90-new-fishing-kayaks/1879-new-offshore-kayak-from-wilderness-systems.html
-Allen
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Here's the video. What do you guys think. First Jackson leaks a west coast offshore kayak (ala Jim Sammons) and now Wildy has one. It's good to see the tide turn. "Bass Yaks" are so last year.
-Allen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5abn8TqVE
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I'll repeat my comment from Facebook here:
Watched the video - pretty interesting. I like that they're taking the market needs seriously. I have seen the massive improvements they've made to the Tarpon 120 over the years (I have an old one, and let me tell you, they've made some huge improvements!) and I'm glad they're continuing their trend of innovation.
I am curious about what looks like a giant front hatch - that could be really useful or really cumbersome depending on how they implement it. I like what I am seeing in the back area - looks like a very large area for a crate or cooler. This must be like 13 or 14 feet?
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It looks like there is a spot in the bottom of the hull near the foot rests which is hollow or depressed. I wonder if they plan to accommodate the wide range of transducer models and if that was why it looked different in that section of the hull. In the end it's just a kayak. I like to see change, a market with a lot of options and new ideas but with this model I can't see anything earth shattering so far. That goes for the new Jackson kayak coming out too. The front hatch looks it was designed to be a platform of some sort since it's raised up and flat. I don't see myself running out to buy one but glad to see the developments for those that require the latest gizmos :-)
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It looks like there is a spot in the bottom of the hull near the foot rests which is hollow or depressed. I wonder if they plan to accommodate the wide range of transducer models and if that was why it looked different in that section of the hull. In the end it's just a kayak. I like to see change, a market with a lot of options and new ideas but with this model I can't see anything earth shattering so far. That goes for the new Jackson kayak coming out too. The front hatch looks it was designed to be a platform of some sort since it's raised up and flat. I don't see myself running out to buy one but glad to see the developments for those that require the latest gizmos :-)
Yeah, I agree. "Cool, but..." it's not like I'm going to go sell something and buy this. It just seems to be an interesting time in kayak fishing, so it's fun seeing what the various brands try to do to grab market share.
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On that note: I'm about to go retro with my next kayak. Getting a used sit-in for river fishing. The market is definitely flooded with good options when it comes to bass kayaks. LOL
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Interesting perspective guys. Assuming there is an "offshore" or "west coast" category of fishing kayaks, which current models would you say fit that? And what makes them fit that?
My own thoughts ... longer, narrower, lighter, a joy to paddle miles and miles from the launch and back. Able to handle wind waves and swells in varied conditions, doesn't just pound over the waves when heading into them and doesn't get pushed around when in following seas. Surfs well.
-Allen
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The over-sized hatch looks like what Malibu has on their kayaks. I loved the idea of a front hatch that size but it did have increased leakage. It was great for stowing rods and would be even better for stowing a fish bag.
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I don't know that I would try to define "off shore fishing kayak" as a category but my guess is that most people would be looking for some of the experiences you just mentioned "narrow, light, easy to paddle, handle wind waves and swells". My experience is limited with kayaks and different models but I can tell you I have not really seen a "fishing kayak" that surfs that well yet. Not that I need one. I just don't care if I crash in the surf most times.
From what I can tell Jackson and Wilderness Systems are trying to naturally take market share in this area from competitors. A couple of competitors in mind would be Malibu (express or X-13, etc) and Ocean Kayak Trident series.
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One more thing - If I was going to try and define "off shore fishing kayak" I would suggest that most people (not all of course) would rather do away with the very comfortable but high center of balance beach chair seats. Like in the Cuda for example..
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Thinking about this more ... I'd even punt on the surf-ability if it compromised the other features. In fact, just substitute a bow design/volume that minimizes perling in the surf and I'll deal. This would also help with perling in the troughs between swells.
-Allen
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One more thing - If I was going to try and define "off shore fishing kayak" I would suggest that most people (not all of course) would rather do away with the very comfortable but high center of balance beach chair seats. Like in the Cuda for example..
+1.
-Allen
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I agree with Ray. Particularly the part about surfing. It's great if you land without the huli, but sacrificing any other area for that once or twice a day you catch a wave in, isn't worth it. It just needs to make it to the beach, it doesn't need to make it there with a 10 point wave score.
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I agree with Ray. Particularly the part about surfing. It's great if you land without the huli, but sacrificing any other area for that once or twice a day you catch a wave in, isn't worth it. It just needs to make it to the beach, it doesn't need to make it there with a 10 point wave score.
Hah! We're all posting the same thought on surfing. I posted what I did a couple posts back before readying Ray's post about it.
-Allen
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One more thing - If I was going to try and define "off shore fishing kayak" I would suggest that most people (not all of course) would rather do away with the very comfortable but high center of balance beach chair seats. Like in the Cuda for example..
+1.
-Allen
This is very true. I tried using the seat on the PA12 in the high up position on the ocean and it was not good. The low position works, but I only take that boat on the ocean on really calm days. My Revo13 is still my ocean boat.
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One more thing - If I was going to try and define "off shore fishing kayak" I would suggest that most people (not all of course) would rather do away with the very comfortable but high center of balance beach chair seats. Like in the Cuda for example..
This is something that I mentioned to some of the Jackson folks while I was at their dealer conference. I believe my quote was "If I'm going out in the ocean, I want my ass on the plastic."
Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Tapatalk
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Yea if you really want to surf and carve waves in kayak, a dedicated surf kayak seems to be the way to go anyways. Being able to punch through waves and having enough secondary stability when needed are important however IMO.
+1 for low C.O.G.
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Being a noob still, I thought I would give my thoughts for other people that are new to this addicting thing they call kayak fishing..... I am very happy with my choice of the Outback for my first boat... I was fortuante enough that a fellow memeber let me borrow his extra Outback for a while and that is what determined my choice of boat (Thanks again Dana!) Until I am confortable with my confidence level on the salt or any body of water for that matter, I enjoy the extra stability verses the speed and agility of the Outback (its no fun being a nervous wreck while out fishing). I have only been out on the salt 3 times, ORC being my first, AOTD being my second and third. I have been on some other fresh water trips, my confidence level improves with every outing and I also learn a thing or two everytime I go out. I am still a little uneasy getting close to rocks and stuff in the chop, but that is my gut telling me that "if your not comfortable, don't do it!"...... I do see on the horizon a OK T13 under my butt within the next year though, I got to paddle one around and was very impressed with it......but my confidence and experience is first and foremost at this point......as for a huli......have not got to experience that yet, but now that I made the wise investment of a quality dry suit I may enjoy it....for a minute :o
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Interesting perspective guys. Assuming there is an "offshore" or "west coast" category of fishing kayaks, which current models would you say fit that? And what makes them fit that?
My own thoughts ... longer, narrower, lighter, a joy to paddle miles and miles from the launch and back. Able to handle wind waves and swells in varied conditions, doesn't just pound over the waves when heading into them and doesn't get pushed around when in following seas. Surfs well.
-Allen
I've only owned a mini-x and an outback. Neither I don't think come to mind as the ideal "offshore" boat. I think number one, when you are alone miles offshore over 1,000 ft of water, the ideal platform is one that you have confidence in. I have that with my outback. I've failed launching in big surf, I have fished successfully in 5 to 6 ft swells in March. I am getting a better idea of its limits every time I go out. To me my outback would be the perfect offshore kayak for me...if I carried an extra mirage drive and a rudder pin. Your mileage will most certainly vary.
It's stable enough I am not constantly needing to monitor for rogue swells. It provides for me (emphasis on "me") options such as mounting downriggers and sails without potentially requiring added stability (ie amas). I have aspirations of maxing out its 400 pound weight capacity with fish.
If offshore fishing success was a linear or greater function of distance traveled, I'd have to believe an Adventure or more traditional distance speed kayaks would have an edge. But for me, offshore typically means less than 5 miles and I can easily do that in an outback. One day I will try anther kayak and come to a WHOLE different conclusion I am sure!!!! But bottom line, I have confidence in my outback. Until another kayak instills greater confidence for performing, for me solo, miles offshore, my outback will be my offshore go to kayak.
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Interesting perspective guys. Assuming there is an "offshore" or "west coast" category of fishing kayaks, which current models would you say fit that? And what makes them fit that?
My own thoughts ... longer, narrower, lighter, a joy to paddle miles and miles from the launch and back. Able to handle wind waves and swells in varied conditions, doesn't just pound over the waves when heading into them and doesn't get pushed around when in following seas. Surfs well.
-Allen
I've only owned a mini-x and an outback. Neither I don't think come to mind as the ideal "offshore" boat. I think number one, when you are alone miles offshore over 1,000 ft of water, the ideal platform is one that you have confidence in. I have that with my outback. I've failed launching in big surf, I have fished successfully in 5 to 6 ft swells in March. I am getting a better idea of its limits every time I go out. To me my outback would be the perfect offshore kayak for me...if I carried an extra mirage drive and a rudder pin. Your mileage will most certainly vary.
It's stable enough I am not constantly needing to monitor for rogue swells. It provides for me (emphasis on "me") options such as mounting downriggers and sails without potentially requiring added stability (ie amas). I have aspirations of maxing out its 400 pound weight capacity with fish.
If offshore fishing success was a linear or greater function of distance traveled, I'd have to believe an Adventure or more traditional distance speed kayaks would have an edge. But for me, offshore typically means less than 5 miles and I can easily do that in an outback. One day I will try anther kayak and come to a WHOLE different conclusion I am sure!!!! But bottom line, I have confidence in my outback. Until another kayak instills greater confidence for performing, for me solo, miles offshore, my outback will be my offshore go to kayak.
I have aspirations of maxing out its 400 pound weight capacity with fish. :banjo:
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My 9 and 11 year old daughters handle Huli's. They aren't that big a deal, which is why most of us agree that surf handling isn't worth giving up for other stuff.
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For me, the Revo is the ultimate offshore rig. It has all the features that people are looking for but doesn't seem to bastardize any of them. I think the only gripe would be that it isn't as fast as the Adventure, however it is still considered quite fast and trades that bit of glide for a healthy amount of stability.
I know that the mirage drive puts it into a different category that many manufacturers haven't wanted to enter, but still... I'd put it up there as the best all 'rounder.
Qualities I like:
- Fast
- Stable
- 350# Capacity
- Mirage Drive & paddle-able
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The only down side of the revo is the same short cockpit as the outback.
Now if hobie would put a decent bow it would be an even better boat.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
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The only down side of the revo is the same short cockpit as the outback.
Now if hobie would put a decent bow it would be an even better boat.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
A Revo 15?
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The only down side of the revo is the same short cockpit as the outback.
I'm 6'4" with long legs and I thought the exact same thing when I first got it. But I quickly grew accustomed and I wouldn't call it an issue, per se, but I would say that adding just an inch or so would be an improvement for us longer guys. But I don't know if that's reasonable in a production boat, since taller people are the minority.
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The Hobie Mirage kayaks are not in the same price range and therefore some people will not view them as the main competitor of the new Jackson and Wilderness Systems developments. While the Hobies have their fanatic following and people get very sensitive about criticizing those boats, I still have to say that they are not reliable enough for me to consider taking farther than I can swim from shore. Especially after hearing about several cracked hulls (including one which I was witness to) as well as broken arms on the Mirage Drive. Frankly speaking fishing "hands free" is not a big selling item for me as I find fishing quite easy with a paddle boat, but I am not entirely dismissive of the idea at all. Back to the point, since the Mirage driven boats cost almost double the amount of a paddle boat many manufacturers may not see them as their main competitor in the market.
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The Hobie Mirage kayaks are not in the same price range and therefore some people will not view them as the main competitor of the new Jackson and Wilderness Systems developments. While the Hobies have their fanatic following and people get very sensitive about criticizing those boats, I still have to say that they are not reliable enough for me to consider taking farther than I can swim from shore. Especially after hearing about several cracked hulls (including one which I was witness to), broken arms on the Mirage Drive. Frankly speaking fishing "hands free" is not a big selling item for me as I find fishing quite easy with a paddle boat, but I am not entirely dismissive of the idea at all. Back to the point, since the Mirage driven boats cost almost double the amount of a paddle boat many manufacturers may not see them as their main competitor in the market.
Agree with most of this except the very last part. The fact that Mirage driven boats, even at double the cost, are taking away butts that would otherwise be in paddle boats, means they are in fact, competition. An interesting question ... could one build a paddle kayak at the cost of a Hobie Mirage kayak and compete with it? What would it look like?
-Allen
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The Hobie Mirage kayaks are not in the same price range and therefore some people will not view them as the main competitor of the new Jackson and Wilderness Systems developments.
If price is part of the equation, then I agree with you, but see my comment below.
While the Hobies have their fanatic following and people get very sensitive about criticizing those boats, I still have to say that they are not reliable enough for me to consider taking farther than I can swim from shore. Especially after hearing about several cracked hulls (including one which I was witness to) as well as broken arms on the Mirage Drive. Frankly speaking fishing "hands free" is not a big selling item for me as I find fishing quite easy with a paddle boat, but I am not entirely dismissive of the idea at all.
I'm not a Hobie fanatic and my first couple posts on the forum were somewhat negative towards my new boat (cockpit actually LOL), but they turn out a decent product. I find that keeping on top of your drift by using your legs has been very beneficial to me.
Back to the point, since the Mirage driven boats cost almost double the amount of a paddle boat many manufacturers may not see them as their main competitor in the market.
I respectfully disagree here. Partly why I bought the Revo is because of its value. It comes with a paddle, a drive system, a seat, and a rudder. If you add those up, the price disparity is much closer. (The tough part is putting value to their drive system - I think that's one place where they gouge a bit)
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I have aspirations of maxing out its 400 pound weight capacity with fish. :banjo:
Like everything else, it takes planning. I've dropped 40 pounds since I started kayaking 3 years ago! That's 40 more pounds I can carry! lol. The best I have ever done is a 6 coho limit at roughly 75 pounds. I loan a kayak to spot and he manages that weight with one fish! Next year I am hitting the cohos with a proxy license (we can keep an extra limit for someone else) so I can keep 12 cohos and hopefully add a halibut or two. Haha. I love to "sport" fish. But putting high quality protein for the family in the freezer is and will always continue to be number one priority of fishing!!!
The Hobie Mirage kayaks are not in the same price range and therefore some people will not view them as the main competitor of the new Jackson and Wilderness Systems developments. While the Hobies have their fanatic following and people get very sensitive about criticizing those boats, I still have to say that they are not reliable enough for me to consider taking farther than I can swim from shore. Especially after hearing about several cracked hulls (including one which I was witness to) as well as broken arms on the Mirage Drive. Frankly speaking fishing "hands free" is not a big selling item for me as I find fishing quite easy with a paddle boat, but I am not entirely dismissive of the idea at all. Back to the point, since the Mirage driven boats cost almost double the amount of a paddle boat many manufacturers may not see them as their main competitor in the market.
I'd agree about the cost. Especially since I also agree that solo 10 miles out, I would most definitely carry an extra mirage drive as the paddle is not meant for ten mile trip in an outback. That's even more additional costs. I'm just lucky I happen to own a second not as often used outback. But there better be some AMAZING innovation for me to switch to a non mirage kayak!!! So put me in the category of "the mirage drive is worth the xtra price."
The outback is one of the worst examples among the Hobies, but I find the "no paddle propulsion" highly beneficial in ability to travel for "greater length of time" due to using larger leg muscles and the mirage drive continuously pulls you through the water unlike the start/stop motion of a paddled kayak in strong wind (which is MOST of the time offshore). I notice it because my paddle kayak is a barge...the mini-x. Maybe other paddle kayaks with better glide is more immune to the winds effects.
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The Hobie Mirage kayaks are not in the same price range and therefore some people will not view them as the main competitor of the new Jackson and Wilderness Systems developments. While the Hobies have their fanatic following and people get very sensitive about criticizing those boats, I still have to say that they are not reliable enough for me to consider taking farther than I can swim from shore. Especially after hearing about several cracked hulls (including one which I was witness to) as well as broken arms on the Mirage Drive. Frankly speaking fishing "hands free" is not a big selling item for me as I find fishing quite easy with a paddle boat, but I am not entirely dismissive of the idea at all. Back to the point, since the Mirage driven boats cost almost double the amount of a paddle boat many manufacturers may not see them as their main competitor in the market.
I would absolutely rely on any of my kayaks on an offshore solo trip. Be it my Trident or my adventure. I think you are taking about my cracked hull attempted sinking of my old Adventure. I have to completely own that one. It was not the boats fault, the crack leaked for almost a solid year and I kept just trying to patch it together.
Add the fact that the Adventure paddles better than most non Hobies make it very reliable.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
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Those who know my primary boat already know my 2 cents. ::)
18' long, 24.5" wide, rod holders, FF, back deck for net and fish storage, 400 lb capacity with lots of dry storage for extended trips. Surfs great, super efficient and still around 60 pounds. I'll bet one day there will be something like this on the market, maybe in a SOT version or partially covered cockpit. Until then I get all those offshore trips to myself.
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Agree with most of this except the very last part. The fact that Mirage driven boats, even at double the cost, are taking away butts that would otherwise be in paddle boats, means they are in fact, competition. An interesting question ... could one build a paddle kayak at the cost of a Hobie Mirage kayak and compete with it? What would it look like?
-Allen
I think your answer might come in the form of the Kazkasi DoDo's.
Not knowing squat about them, would the RTM Abaco fit this too?
Which reminds me, What does Wilderness plan on naming this thingy?
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Agree with most of this except the very last part. The fact that Mirage driven boats, even at double the cost, are taking away butts that would otherwise be in paddle boats, means they are in fact, competition. An interesting question ... could one build a paddle kayak at the cost of a Hobie Mirage kayak and compete with it? What would it look like?
-Allen
I think your answer might come in the form of the Kazkasi DoDo's.
Not knowing squat about them, would the RTM Abaco fit this too?
Which reminds me, What does Wilderness plan on naming this thingy?
Yeah, along the lines of what I'm thinking. A nice fiberglass/composite yak. Stealth has a container full of their stuff coming to the USA in Feb.
RTM Abaco does NOT fit this.
No name on the new Wildy. No other details at this time. But stay tuned. ;)
-Allen
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Stealth has a container full of their stuff coming to the USA in Feb.
-Allen
I saw this posted on the other forum. Have you ever paddled them? Thoughts on how they'd fit with our NW conditions?
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Stealth has a container full of their stuff coming to the USA in Feb.
-Allen
I saw this posted on the other forum. Have you ever paddled them? Thoughts on how they'd fit with our NW conditions?
I test paddled a Pro Fisha 575 for about 10 minutes down in Panama. The guy that was on it for the week, didn't want to give it up for a day. ::) It's a really fast kayak, that I think will do well, but it will be expensive, and they don't have a whole lot of them coming in. The cockpit is short on the 575, but they came out with the 525 for longer legged paddlers. I can't wait to get some butt time in on the 525. But I can't wait to get some butt time in on the new WS kayak as well. I love the concept of a big water kayak, but the devil will be in the details.
-Allen