NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => Events => Topic started by: bsteves on November 16, 2018, 02:32:18 PM
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After last year's Oregon Rockfish Not-so-Classic (i.e. the non-tournament), there are many questions lingering about the future of the ORC.
Here are some of the issues..
Who is willing to run it?
Those of us that have put the ORC together the past few years are loosing our enthusiasm for the event, and I think that shows a bit. It would be good to get some new ORC committee members to the table.
Who is willing to help round up sponsors?
It's getting harder to round up sponsors. We have several other tournaments that happen earlier in the year and they compete with us for potential prizes. Also, sponsors are expecting more return on investment and it's a delicate balance to keep sponsors happy. What ever we do, we should do it soon as the time to secure those sponsors is now.
Who is willing to handle the money? (Tax issues associated with that.)
Changes in the tax code made it cost prohibitive last year for me to collect registration fees. I don't like the idea of taking a cut, to pay those taxes when there should be other options out there.
Who is willing to take on any issues of liability?
I think we have a fair grasp of the liability/safety issues now and I'm pretty sure we can continue to use the ACA (American Canoe Association) for our insurance coverage. But there is planning that has to be done to get that set up.
Options:
1.) Create a new ORC committee with the energy to take this all on and hope that they can pull this together.
2.) Formally incorporate the ORC committee into some form of non-profit organization. This could potentially help with tax issues and reduce individual liability for those in charge. It would also formalize the process a bit and hopefully help with keeping ORC planning organized. There was talk this past summer about looking into this, but I haven't heard much about how that is going. Frankly, it seems like a lot of paper work and there is some upfront money required to set that all up.
3.) Find a major sponsor willing to run, or help run, the ORC. We tried this previously with Next Adventure and as an ORC committee member, it was nice letting go of a few things. But it seems in the end, some members of NWKA and even Next Adventure weren't happy with the arrangement. Maybe we can do that better next time. The ORC committee members have had two different businesses approach us about that for 2019. In particular, my hope is that they could use there business to handle the registration fees and subsequent donations to our charities and let their tax lawyers deal with it.
4.) Call it quits after 10 years. It was a pretty good run.
5.) We're open to other suggestions.
Anyway, I'm looking for feedback on how members of NWKA envision the future of the ORC. I'm also looking for people who are willing to step up and work on getting whatever we decide done in time to make ORC happen next summer.
Thanks,
Brian
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3.
That seems like a pretty easy decision. Hopefully the two businesses are a brewery and either Chinook Bend or that big casino hotel in Lincoln City. I thought the best ORC experience I had was the year Next Adventure ran things. I know some others don't feel that way, but I didn't see whatever problem they saw.
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3.
Taking the thing back was well intended but the tax and liability are a headache no one wants (or should have) to deal with. At this point it would be good just to get it going again and maybe later down the road we could organize it our own way.
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I have only been to the 2017 ORC, but it is one of my favorite fishing events ever!
My wife and I are both willing to help out with the tournament. My wife was the Family Program Coordinator for one of my National Guard units for 5 years. She set up the non profit group and accounts, she also found a number of donating sponsors. We would be happy to help in whatever capacity is needed.
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3. 2 as a distant second.
Once that decision is made we need to discuss the taco feed, or something to replace it with. I'm interested, depending on how some job issues pan out, with running that part of the tournament again.
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Regarding #2, could NWKA be formed as the non-profit? That way things like ORC and AOTY could have the money and donations go directly through them. Then NWKA could make the donation to HOW or whatever group it decides to send it to.
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Regarding #2, could NWKA be formed as the non-profit? That way things like ORC and AOTY could have the money and donations go directly through them. Then NWKA could make the donation to HOW or whatever group it decides to send it to.
Something like this, maybe not all of NWKA but perhaps form a sub-division to be an umbrella for all events? Part of the sponsors' overload may be from being solicited by so many groups so often each year. The entire state has a population of fewer folks than many big cities, and if NWKA organized our competitions under a single name, it might help. Just sayin'.
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Forgive my ignorance, and it may have been answered in previous threads, but how is nearly every other charity tournament handling it? There's larger tournaments down in California, Gimme Shelter for instance that draw hundreds.
It doesn't solve the sponsor or raffle aspect but can't we grant entrance based of a check written out to Heroes on the water or Neighbors for Kids (dealers choice) and a $5 bill for the insurance? If the issue is money into the hands of an organizer this solves that problem completely. Sure, it doesn't solve the prize aspect, but IMO the prizes are secondary to the fun of the event and bragging rights.
Also... Without opening a can of worms how is AOTY money being handled?
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Forgive my ignorance, and it may have been answered in previous threads, but how is nearly every other charity tournament handling it? There's larger tournaments down in California, Gimme Shelter for instance that draw hundreds.
It doesn't solve the sponsor or raffle aspect but can't we grant entrance based of a check written out to Heroes on the water or Neighbors for Kids (dealers choice) and a $5 bill for the insurance? If the issue is money into the hands of an organizer this solves that problem completely. Sure, it doesn't solve the prize aspect, but IMO the prizes are secondary to the fun of the event and bragging rights.
Also... Without opening a can of worms how is AOTY money being handled?
As I understand it the problem is with paypal issuing 1099-misc forms once a particular threshold of transactions or dollar amount has been crossed. Gimme shelter does not deal in paypal.
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I honestly like the idea of number 3 for more than just the tax benefits. Even if we formally incorporate ORC, it doesn’t solve the issue that this event done properly will take some time. If we go route 2 i am still able to assist.
I think a mix of 1 and 3 is the best. I think a committee of NWKA members along with corporate sponsorship could take this event to another level. The marketing opportunities and gaining a main sponsor for the event could help bring more entrants to the event. If the event goes well, we may be able to talk them into AOTY sponsorship.
The committee could focus on getting other smaller sponsors. For example, the event/main prize could be sponsored by Outdoor play or Next Adventure (if not all bridges are burnt) but we could have the potluck sponsored by Fisherman’s Marine in trade for tournament prizes.
Ideally a sponsor would help put up the main prize at cost and be refunded through royalty’s from the entrance fee. If we paid 5-10 more a person we could have a decent prize which we could attract more entrants.
I understand that people want this to maintain the community feel. Last year was one of my favorite years as it felt like a community event. However, last year many people missed having a competition and we missed out on a good fundraising opportunity for NWKA. I think it would be fun to get a gathering of people there earlier. Many people take the thrursday and Friday off to fish if the ocean permits.
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I understand that people want this to maintain the community feel. Last year was one of my favorite years as it felt like a community event. However, last year many people missed having a competition and we missed out on a good fundraising opportunity for NWKA. I think it would be fun to get a gathering of people there earlier. Many people take the thrursday and Friday off to fish if the ocean permits.
We'll never be able to please everybody. I know we get a lot of strident opinions on here about this event, but it's probably a mistake to let that derail the direction of the event if it's just a couple people making that noise. There were legit complaints about NA from a few years back, but also legit compliments that should have been given consideration. As long as we learn from the problems, past and future, and use that to improve things this can be a smashing success.
Ultimately, though, what do most of us want ORC to be(come)? If a small, community run get-together with bragging rights as the main thing is what most want, then basically let ORC die and those that want to meet up can do so on their own. There are events along those lines (some more published than others) going on already.
If we want a proper tournament with prizes and charity fund raising then, due to tax and liability issues - not to mention obtaining sponsorship/prizes, #3 is basically were we need to go.
I don't think it's possible to have ORC as both a "community" event, and a full-on tournament/fund raiser at the same time. But if folks want to meet up the couple days before to pre-fish and make a community event out of that, I see no conflict.
Personally, I'd like to see corporate based organization so this can be a major event. It's hard for me to get away for anything (not complaining, it was my choice to have 4 kids and this is just a consequence of that choice), and a big tournament seems easier to get a hall pass for than a small gathering of friends. Plus I like the idea of supporting HOW/NFK as a fund-raiser.
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Something close to 1 and 3 would be my vote:
I liked ORC last year and I liked previous years (the one where ORC was a Hobie World Qualifier, and even the not so organized ones). I have not participated in any committee. Personally, I like competition being part of any "tournament", otherwise, it's just an organized meetup...organized by NWKA volunteers.
Perhaps someone that has organized a kayak tournament for another organization would be willing to do this with a source of assistance coming from the NWKA community where volunteers are needed. This is choice 1 that BSteves presented. Fishing tournaments are done ALL THE TIME, there are resources to do it "right". Let's get someone.
Finding a corporation to deal with taxes, donations, entry fees and insurance would be the responsibility of the Chairman (the said person above that knows how to organize a tournament). That chairman might be part of the corporation or might not be. That chairman would also know how to get sponsors and prizes or handle the financial aspects. And with a healthy list of volunteers coming from NWKA, that chairman could delegate the appropriate tasks and NWKA members would feel involved and part of the success.
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Forgive my ignorance, and it may have been answered in previous threads, but how is nearly every other charity tournament handling it? There's larger tournaments down in California, Gimme Shelter for instance that draw hundreds.
It doesn't solve the sponsor or raffle aspect but can't we grant entrance based of a check written out to Heroes on the water or Neighbors for Kids (dealers choice) and a $5 bill for the insurance? If the issue is money into the hands of an organizer this solves that problem completely. Sure, it doesn't solve the prize aspect, but IMO the prizes are secondary to the fun of the event and bragging rights.
Also... Without opening a can of worms how is AOTY money being handled?
As I understand it the problem is with paypal issuing 1099-misc forms once a particular threshold of transactions or dollar amount has been crossed. Gimme shelter does not deal in paypal.
Interesting, I am not sure how Roy got around this with AOTD, he took money via paypal for the ~40 entrants and cut a check to HOW on the spot at the tourney. Could simply be the number or dollar amount that triggers it.
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As I understand it the problem is with paypal issuing 1099-misc forms once a particular threshold of transactions or dollar amount has been crossed. Gimme shelter does not deal in paypal.
I keep telling you that PayPal is evil...
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As I understand it the problem is with paypal issuing 1099-misc forms once a particular threshold of transactions or dollar amount has been crossed. Gimme shelter does not deal in paypal.
I keep telling you that PayPal is evil...
You know about my bad experience with PP. I don't use unless I have literally no other option. I'd far rather receive a check in the mail. A lot of millennials don't write checks. Or use the mail for that matter. I get that both things will probably be ancient relics of the distant past soon enough, but if the future is PayPal then the future can wait.
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As I understand it the problem is with paypal issuing 1099-misc forms once a particular threshold of transactions or dollar amount has been crossed. Gimme shelter does not deal in paypal.
I keep telling you that PayPal is evil...
You know about my bad experience with PP. I don't use unless I have literally no other option. I'd far rather receive a check in the mail. A lot of millennials don't write checks. Or use the mail for that matter. I get that both things will probably be ancient relics of the distant past soon enough, but if the future is PayPal then the future can wait.
Hardly any millenials use Paypal unless otherwise required. Most "kids these days" are using venmo or the "Cash" app. The later being my favorite as there's no fee's, it's immediate and super easy to send and receive funds.
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Many people have suggested option 3. NA or Outdoor Play have been mentioned. What about turning it over to Hobie? They would be a great lead sponsor and have shown the ability to run fishing tournaments of this size or larger. The Hobie event videos I've watched look like well run operations. Having a Hobie Worlds qualifier in the PNW would be of interest to me.
All payment types are going to have issues. Venmo is a subsidiary of PayPal and had a large data issue last year.
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Lot's of good feedback and responses here. I'd like to address a few..
Why not incorporate NWKA as the non-profit?
Well, because it's not really ours to incorporate it belongs to Allen "PolePole". He's down in California these days and currently he uses ad revenue from the forum keeps the forum and AOTY alive. Last I talked to him about this he seemed like he wanted to avoid the paperwork headache that non-profit status would create. That said, he doesn't own AOTY or ORC. We could incorporate some other over arching non-profit that just does our tournaments and we could potentially also include Roy's Sunset Bay tournament and Jed's Brownlee shootout as well if they are interested. It's a lot of paperwork and probably someone's part time job keeping up on all that.
PayPal issues....
I looked into this more. PayPal is required to send out 1099's if you bring in > $20000 in sales. That isn't me. However, that doesn't mean I don't need to report that income anyway. Well, actually it's a gray area, one where I could probably get away with it and never be audited, but I'm not one to take those kinds of chances. In the past it was simple... claim the income, claim the deductions above my standard deduction and it was basically a wash.
PayPal also charges a fee for transactions. For each $40 entry fee about $2 of it goes to PayPal.
A clarification on Option #1....
This is what we've been doing. This is what almost all tournaments do. However, I think the idea was that we'd for a completely NEW committee, one that didn't have the tax and safety concerns I have (now that I'm getting old) and might run this blindly like we did for the first seven years or so. That said, we will have some form of NWKA ORC committee no matter which option we run with. Even if we bring in some outside help from a major sponsor, we'd like to have a committee participating in decisions being made.
At this point, it seems like pursuing a large sponsor that would help with things like handling the money for us and other logistics is still a decent option and one that nobody has completely shot down. It also seems like there is still interest from some of you of having a hand it making sure that ORC 2019 happens.
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crash, who "runs" Gimme Shelter? Perhaps we could ask them a few questions about how they hold it together.
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I've been in touch with most of the NCKA tournament organizers over the past couple years. Basically nobody bothers with insurance or worries about tax issues. However, they asked me to let them know what I found out about those things.
Basically, I'm just getting old and worry about these things. It doesn't help that a previous ORC committee member is married to a lawyer and brought these issues up. Going through the ACA for insurance helped with the one issue for me and simply claiming the income and subsequent donations helped with the other in the past.
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Many people have suggested option 3. NA or Outdoor Play have been mentioned. What about turning it over to Hobie? They would be a great lead sponsor and have shown the ability to run fishing tournaments of this size or larger. The Hobie event videos I've watched look like well run operations. Having a Hobie Worlds qualifier in the PNW would be of interest to me.
All payment types are going to have issues. Venmo is a subsidiary of PayPal and had a large data issue last year.
When we had the Hobie world qualifier here in 2014, it looked like it was Hobie sponsored, but they pretty much didn't give us a thing other than the crappy cloth shopping bag type captain's bags, nor did they help out in any way that I can recall. Thankfully, Next Adventure gave us the boat last minute when it was found out Hobie did not provide them. Thank you again Next Adventure!
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I've been in touch with most of the NCKA tournament organizers over the past couple years. Basically nobody bothers with insurance or worries about tax issues. However, they asked me to let them know what I found out about those things.
Basically, I'm just getting old and worry about these things. It doesn't help that a previous ORC committee member is married to a lawyer and brought these issues up. Going through the ACA for insurance helped with the one issue for me and simply claiming the income and subsequent donations helped with the other in the past.
Thank you, Brian. Those NCKA guys can be a devil-may-care bunch :angel: It must be difficult for those who organize ORC - I'd bet you haven't finished cleaning and stowing your gear before you're thinking about the next year's ORC, and having concerns about personal liability and these tax issues tossed into the mix has to have made it even more difficult on you guys. If no one with fresh ideas and a lot of youthful stamina wants to accept the hurdles and challenges ORC now presents, perhaps it's time to select #4 and let it devolve into a formally informal get-together.
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Fish-N-Chill :banjo:
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The 2018 ORC was basically a fish and chill event. Just those with a laid back perspective on the whole thing gathering to do some fishing and share stories. Probably my favorite year since the original 2008 event when 12 of us gathered at Pacific City. Well minus the part where I felt bad for cancelling the competition part.
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Anyone explore making ORC an "official" HOW Fundraiser to handle the insurance and tax/non-profit issue?
Perhaps HOW HQ can offer insights and having them as the beneficiary could draw more sponsor interest.
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The 2018 ORC was basically a fish and chill event. Just those with a laid back perspective on the whole thing gathering to do some fishing and share stories. Probably my favorite year since the original 2008 event when 12 of us gathered at Pacific City. Well minus the part where I felt bad for cancelling the competition part.
But the competition part is what's causing the problem(s) right now. Take it back to it's roots and if folks want it to evolve again, at least there won't be the same pre-existing expectations to deal with.
(Suggested by some asshat named Tinker who's never been to an ORC) :banjo:
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Anyone explore making ORC an "official" HOW Fundraiser to handle the insurance and tax/non-profit issue?
Perhaps HOW HQ can offer insights and having them as the beneficiary could draw more sponsor interest.
I did quite a bit of research on it last year and it is not too difficult of a process. It does require some funding. I do not own any rights to NWKA/ORC so for me to incorporate it (required for non profit) would not be fair/legal.
I did like the fish and chill but wouldnt mind adding larger side bets for people who are interested. This just seems like a waste of a great opportunity for a charity to benefit. Hopefully we can get a sponsor signed and the event continues.
In my limited experience at these events-- the event is what you make it to be. Some people let their competitive juices get in the way but i always go with the mindset of wantingto learn and meeto new people. Last year was great because thats what it seemd liek everyone was there for. However havingthe tournament is a ton of fun and a great way to bring in new people.
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I did like the fish and chill but wouldnt mind adding larger side bets for people who are interested. This just seems like a waste of a great opportunity for a charity to benefit. Hopefully we can get a sponsor signed and the event continues.
I think this is the biggest thing missing from a fish and chill type event. Sure you could send around a coffee can for donations or something, but it's not going to be the same and certainly not going to raise the level of participation or funds(which is fine if folks want that.)
I could be in the minority in thinking so, but I think the competition aspect is what draws a lot of folks to the whole thing. I had planned on attending ORC with site booked and everything but cancelled once the event was cancelled (at least in the event format.)
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I could be in the minority in thinking so, but I think the competition aspect is what draws a lot of folks to the whole thing. I had planned on attending ORC with site booked and everything but cancelled once the event was cancelled (at least in the event format.)
You're not alone. The competition aspect is what'll get me to target bottomfish during the heat of ocean salmon season.
Speaking of which, it'd be really cool to incorporate salmon into the competition. It might not jive with the title of the event, but maybe it could be a side bet type of thing?
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I could be in the minority in thinking so, but I think the competition aspect is what draws a lot of folks to the whole thing. I had planned on attending ORC with site booked and everything but cancelled once the event was cancelled (at least in the event format.)
You're not alone. The competition aspect is what'll get me to target bottomfish during the heat of ocean salmon season.
Speaking of which, it'd be really cool to incorporate salmon into the competition. It might not jive with the title of the event, but maybe it could be a side bet type of thing?
Yeah I'm not going to Depoe Bay for a F&C unless I already happen to be in the area. Which happens often enough that time of year, but last year was going to be my 3rd weekend out of 4 going to the north coast so once I could see the writing on the wall that the competition wasn't happening I made plans to go salmon fishing on the Rogue instead.
Like Clayman, I too enjoy the AOTD mixed bag format for fishing tournaments. Not going to hold my breath though. But I for sure won't be coming to ORC that is anything less than a competitive tournament. I'll fish with you PDX guys at the sturgeon social instead.
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Regarding charities that ORC raises money for, I really don't want to see it drift away from "Neighbors for Kids" to just raising money for HOW. HOW is absolutely a great purpose and can use money, however they are supported by several other events throughout the year, where as Neighbors for Kids does not.
Back in 2010 or 2011 ORC was taking off and the NWKA crew here wanted to give back to the locals and we did an area search for a good charity that ORC could support in the Depoe Bay area. Neighbors for Kids was one of the charities that was highlighted as a group that could really use extra funds to give the local kids a safe place to go after school and stay out of trouble in the community.
So, I feel it's important that if ORC lives on, so should the charity support continue to be directed to Neighbors for Kids.
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I agree with the Neighbor's for Kids sentiment. One nice thing about supporting a local charity is the local officials supported us to include: finding us overflow parking, setting up a separate launch lane, keeping the boaters calmed down, and putting notices out in advance that we would be descending on the launch that day..
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In the past we've done a 50/50 split with HOW and NFK, and I think that's cool.
TBH we had a pretty tough year of fundraising for HOW in comparison with past years. There was no Chinook Showdown (the fish were MIA), no Bonneville Bass Bonanza (Kayak Shed fire), and no ORC. We would have been in a big hole if not for CBY and his amazing effort at Sunset Bay Angler Of The Day. Pretty sure Mojo's Tilly tourney was the North Coast Chapter's only fundraiser for them.
I think it's important for us to support NFK too. That program is a real pillar in that small coastal community where the tax base is not large enough to fully fund a community center and the public transportation options are pretty slim to travel the 13 miles south to Newport Rec Center or 14 miles north to Lincoln City Community Center.
Regarding charities that ORC raises money for, I really don't want to see it drift away from "Neighbors for Kids" to just raising money for HOW. HOW is absolutely a great purpose and can use money, however they are supported by several other events throughout the year, where as Neighbors for Kids does not.
Back in 2010 or 2011 ORC was taking off and the NWKA crew here wanted to give back to the locals and we did an area search for a good charity that ORC could support in the Depoe Bay area. Neighbors for Kids was one of the charities that was highlighted as a group that could really use extra funds to give the local kids a safe place to go after school and stay out of trouble in the community.
So, I feel it's important that if ORC lives on, so should the charity support continue to be directed to Neighbors for Kids.
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I agree with all of the sentiments about the charities, but if I'm understanding Brian's comments, trying to do a highly organized fundraiser event complete with entry fees and prizes, but without a sponsor to carry that load, is where ORC got way too complicated this year. A Fish & Chill with a "suggested cash donation" amount might not be the worst thing to do to keep it going during this transition period. Just saying.
And again, I'm making a suggestion for an event that I never attended and now I never will, so this comment isn't worth the paper it's printed on. My brain is just leaking. Again. :angel:
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For what it's worth: the Sunset Bay Angler of the Day event, based on info from their FB page, scores fish per inch as follows:
"Cabezon 7 points Chinook 4 points Coho 5 points Flounder 8 points Greenling 10 points Halibut 4 points Lingcod 5 points Rockfish 8 points Surf Perch 12 points"
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In the past we've done a 50/50 split with HOW and NFK, and I think that's cool.
TBH we had a pretty tough year of fundraising for HOW in comparison with past years. There was no Chinook Showdown (the fish were MIA), no Bonneville Bass Bonanza (Kayak Shed fire), and no ORC. We would have been in a big hole if not for CBY and his amazing effort at Sunset Bay Angler Of The Day. Pretty sure Mojo's Tilly tourney was the North Coast Chapter's only fundraiser for them.
I think it's important for us to support NFK too. That program is a real pillar in that small coastal community where the tax base is not large enough to fully fund a community center and the public transportation options are pretty slim to travel the 13 miles south to Newport Rec Center or 14 miles north to Lincoln City Community Center.
Regarding charities that ORC raises money for, I really don't want to see it drift away from "Neighbors for Kids" to just raising money for HOW. HOW is absolutely a great purpose and can use money, however they are supported by several other events throughout the year, where as Neighbors for Kids does not.
Back in 2010 or 2011 ORC was taking off and the NWKA crew here wanted to give back to the locals and we did an area search for a good charity that ORC could support in the Depoe Bay area. Neighbors for Kids was one of the charities that was highlighted as a group that could really use extra funds to give the local kids a safe place to go after school and stay out of trouble in the community.
So, I feel it's important that if ORC lives on, so should the charity support continue to be directed to Neighbors for Kids.
I really like the idea of supporting NFK for all the various reasons mentioned, though particularly the local good-will. I might suggest they be the "official" charity supported by ORC. Then also have a hat to pass around for HOW donations as many of us like donating to them too. Perhaps the taco feed/potuck/whatever it becomes partly (along with NFK) or wholly supports HOW with any funds raised.