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Topic: Here we go- Licensing for Kayakers  (Read 4417 times)

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DWB123

  • Salmon
  • ******
  • Location: Seattle, WA
  • Date Registered: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 841
What's dangerous and destructive is the rampant and unchecked crime, homelessness, drug addiction that Seattle is riddled with. Nothing is done about our cars being broken into, homes burglarized, parks taken over by tents. But Jay Inslee and others of his ilk feel its necessary to limit my gym session to 45 minutes and make me take a kayak safety course for my own good.

I wont comply. I'm better suited to make decisions regarding the well being of myself and my community than this corrupt and ineffective government.

Sorry snowflake. If you don't like it, why dontcha move?


[WR]

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • VFW, Life Member at Large, since 1997.
  • ADTA.org
  • Location: West of Auburn, East of the Sound
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 4716
I'm not against education but my beef is how they wrote it, by tacking it on to one specifically for boats with engines.  When I sell a Hobie I try to make sure the person buying it is aware of the dangers and that they should wear a PFD at all times and immersion gear if they will be out in 120 or less.

The other issues I have with the bill as proposed is that it does not cover things like guided fishing, does the client have to pass the test before going out with the guide?  What about short term rentals businesses that rent out kayaks by the hour?  What do I do when I want to put on a demo day or give a 1:1 demo to customer?

Good points. I don't think the authors even considered those concepts when they wrote it.
Why so many odd typos ? You try typing on 6 mm virtual keys with 26 mm thumbs....


[WR]

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • VFW, Life Member at Large, since 1997.
  • ADTA.org
  • Location: West of Auburn, East of the Sound
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 4716
What's dangerous and destructive is the rampant and unchecked crime, homelessness, drug addiction that Seattle is riddled with. Nothing is done about our cars being broken into, homes burglarized, parks taken over by tents. But Jay Inslee and others of his ilk feel its necessary to limit my gym session to 45 minutes and make me take a kayak safety course for my own good.

I wont comply. I'm better suited to make decisions regarding the well being of myself and my community than this corrupt and ineffective government.

lol you sure do know a lot about Seattle/Washington for someone who's only lived here since March.

Conflating COVID restrictions w/ this bill seems like a losing proposition if your goal is to drum up support against the bill.

No, in a lot of ways he's right. They need to clean up their own corrupt nanny statist acts with regards to the issues he's mentioned before they deign to dictate something like this. Public safety is Public safety.  Maybe we should pass a constitutional ammendment here that requires politicians and virtue signalers to have mental health evaluations and be licensed before they can run for and take office, or even propose legislation.

Somewhere in the proposal , I missed it. Did they even list any type of punishment or fines for non compliance??

Never mind, just reread it. As it stands right now, there's no provision for punitive anything for non compliance. Just adding higher financial bars and ludicris hoops to jump through.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 06:18:45 PM by [WR] »
Why so many odd typos ? You try typing on 6 mm virtual keys with 26 mm thumbs....


[WR]

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • VFW, Life Member at Large, since 1997.
  • ADTA.org
  • Location: West of Auburn, East of the Sound
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 4716
Leading the petition effort is Scott Holley, president of Eddyline Kayaks in Burlington, who fears that the measure will end up being a gatekeeper for water access. While many people cannot afford to keep a sailboat or speedboat, renting a kayak for the afternoon on Lake Washington or at Deception Pass is a relatively affordable possibility for people, Holley said.

Ok, that was pulled out of the 1st link in the article. 

Time to find the petition and sign on.
Why so many odd typos ? You try typing on 6 mm virtual keys with 26 mm thumbs....


bogueYaker

  • Lingcod
  • *****
  • Pace the halls and climb the walls
  • Location: Now back in NC
  • Date Registered: Aug 2019
  • Posts: 405
No, in a lot of ways he's right. They need to clean up their own corrupt nanny statist acts with regards to the issues he's mentioned before they deign to dictate something like this. Public safety is Public safety.  Maybe we should pass a constitutional ammendment here that requires politicians and virtue signalers to have mental health evaluations and be licensed before they can run for and take office, or even propose legislation.

If y'all want to air political grievances, fine. If y'all want to sound like you're storming the US Capitol while you do it, go ahead. But it seems to me that doing so distracts from the issue at hand: the potential implementation of mandatory safety training for kayakers.

Take your angst in another direction -- draft some legislative framework that would decrease the number of kayakers in distress while not stressing the small time kayak seller or renter, as KReddin pointed out. Even if you think it's someone's right to be uninformed and die in a kayaking mishap, each of these personal tragedies saps first responder and LEO resources. Why not get creative and try to diminish LEO burden? After all, sounds like they need all the time they can get to crack your bogeymen's skulls ;)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:51:36 PM by bogueYaker »


INSAYN

  • ORC_Safety
  • Sturgeon
  • *
  • **RIP...Ron, Ro, AMB, Stephen**
  • Location: Forest Grove, OR
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 5411
Clearly taking a drivers education class and paying for a drivers license hasn't really eliminated dumb drivers, road rage, and daily accidents.  It probably helped to some small degree, but only to those that took it seriously.
PSA broadcasted as TV, cable, internet commercials with graphic images would probably be more productive. 

I was one of the few folks that got on board to test and critique the Oregon ATV online safety course years ago well before it went live. It took several swings at the curriculum to get it to work correctly and get the important info worded right to hit home with the wide range of ATV operators. In the end I feel that it turned out very functional, and completely free to the user.

It is possible to do the same thing with the kayak/SUP community.  One thing though, it had better be free to take the course, free to test, and free to get the license.

In the end, if the curriculum is too broad, vague or pointless, we gain nothing from this.

If this plan/bill is just the beginning of a new way for the gov'ment to glean some easy funding, then screw them! I don't think it would be a value added bill.
 

"If I was ever stranded on a beach with only hand lotion...You're the guy I'd want with me!"   Polyangler, 2/27/15


workhard

  • Salmon
  • ******
  • Get off your computer and fish
  • Location: Bellingham
  • Date Registered: Sep 2015
  • Posts: 712


Mojo Jojo

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • Suffers from Yakfishiolus Catchyitis
  • Location: Tillamook, Oregon
  • Date Registered: May 2014
  • Posts: 6006
Clearly taking a drivers education class and paying for a drivers license hasn't really eliminated dumb drivers, road rage, and daily accidents.  It probably helped to some small degree, but only to those that took it seriously.
PSA broadcasted as TV, cable, internet commercials with graphic images would probably be more productive. 

I was one of the few folks that got on board to test and critique the Oregon ATV online safety course years ago well before it went live. It took several swings at the curriculum to get it to work correctly and get the important info worded right to hit home with the wide range of ATV operators. In the end I feel that it turned out very functional, and completely free to the user.

It is possible to do the same thing with the kayak/SUP community.  One thing though, it had better be free to take the course, free to test, and free to get the license.

In the end, if the curriculum is too broad, vague or pointless, we gain nothing from this.

If this plan/bill is just the beginning of a new way for the gov'ment to glean some easy funding, then screw them! I don't think it would be a value added bill.
Good on you for the ATV participation end, but TLW being on the Tillamook scanner......... ya there were daily and a few multiple daily accidents at the sand dunes and lifeflight was involved and I believe a couple fatalities.



Shannon
2013 Jackson Big Tuna "Aircraft Carrier"
2011 Native Mariner Propel "My pickup truck"
2015 Native Slayer Propel "TLW's ride"
20?? Cobra Fish-N-Dive “10yo grandson’s”
20?? Emotion Sparky “5 yr old granddaughter’s”


MonkeyFist

  • Lingcod
  • *****
  • Location: Corvallis, OR
  • Date Registered: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 363
The bottom line on this it's just another way for the government to put its boot on your neck.
Every law, regulation, rule, or policy is enforced by the state.
That means a man with a gun will MAKE you do what the state wants.

This forum has done more to make kayakers safe in the PNW than this bill would.

Every new yakker that comes here is constantly reminded of what they need to learn, know, and apply when going on the water.  Doesn't matter if it's lakes, ponds, or the blue.

They are pushed to go out with experienced people, to build their skills, but the Goobs know better.
Here's how it will work for you that don't understand our government.

A 2 hour class that costs $50.00 and is only available on Thursday at 1:00 PM, class size is limited to 15 people, COVID you know.   Oh the instructors are all friends of the people making the laws, got to pass some of that taxpayer money around, everyone gets to dip their beak.
The $25.00* non-motorized watercraft permit is will be $30.00 the next time the fools in Salem and Tacoma meet with a $5.00 increase every year thereafter.

*$25.00 is an arbitrary number not connected to current reality, much like anyone who believes this is a good idea.

How that Columbia Basin Endorsement working out for us?
Same stinky bag of garbage.


BentRod

  • Rockfish
  • ****
  • Location: Issaquah
  • Date Registered: Mar 2016
  • Posts: 135
I'd be shocked if a mandatory class/certification was free....To get a boaters license is a minimum of $10.  I'm not against public education either, but like many of these things that get implemented, it's not going to stop the idiocy, it's only going to tax the people who already follow the rules. 

I'd rather see more law enforcement out there enforcing existing boating laws (mainly motorboats, but also the people who don't carry a PFD on a kayak or paddle board) and reminding people to be safe.  Just because you have a boater's safety card doesn't mean you're following the rules.   How many of us have nearly been (or HAVE been) hit or swamped by power boaters not paying attention or being downright unsafe?   


Matt M

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • Location: Tigard
  • Date Registered: Mar 2016
  • Posts: 1236
Clearly taking a drivers education class and paying for a drivers license hasn't really eliminated dumb drivers, road rage, and daily accidents.  It probably helped to some small degree, but only to those that took it seriously.
PSA broadcasted as TV, cable, internet commercials with graphic images would probably be more productive. 

I was one of the few folks that got on board to test and critique the Oregon ATV online safety course years ago well before it went live. It took several swings at the curriculum to get it to work correctly and get the important info worded right to hit home with the wide range of ATV operators. In the end I feel that it turned out very functional, and completely free to the user.

It is possible to do the same thing with the kayak/SUP community.  One thing though, it had better be free to take the course, free to test, and free to get the license.

In the end, if the curriculum is too broad, vague or pointless, we gain nothing from this.

If this plan/bill is just the beginning of a new way for the gov'ment to glean some easy funding, then screw them! I don't think it would be a value added bill.

It's interesting because I took the ATV class maybe 18 months ago, and could I tell you what I learned? Not particularly. I remember thinking it was interesting and valuable at the time, but I don't think there's anything that came from it that I picked up on that I am using or would use. Perhaps because the basics I already knew or simply wasn't paying attention, but if there was something in there that could've been life saving I am not sure I could tell you what it was. This isn't to say your efforts for the program are without merit, I just am likely part of the young and dumb group that take it to "pass" and then forget about it over the next few months since it was done out of requirement rather than out of a desire for education.

I guess all this to be said that I can't foresee this changing things for the kayak community and kayak deaths at large to be honest. Those that go out on the ocean in jeans and a sweatshirt without wearing their PFD are not likely to stop because 2 years ago they took an online course that told them they shouldn't do that, they're "great swimmers" and have no problems paddling with some wind of course.

If they want to reduce the kayak related tragedies then force kayakers to wear life jackets. Period. End of story. Simply saying you must carry one is quite literally the dumbest thing if your true goal is to have the kayaker/canoer/etc wearing it. If you're going in the drink in a kayak there's a very high likelihood of said PFD floating away before you can get to it, rendering it useless. Force wearing the PFD and enforce it. Everything else is stupid government lip service that isn't going to affect change. This isn't to say I'm for more government regulation, I am most certainly not, but this bill does nothing but potentially bring in pennies in exchange for little to no difference in behavior. 
-Matt

Old Town Sportsman 120 PDL


[WR]

  • Sturgeon
  • *******
  • VFW, Life Member at Large, since 1997.
  • ADTA.org
  • Location: West of Auburn, East of the Sound
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 4716


If y'all want to air political grievances, fine. If y'all want to sound like you're storming the US Capitol while you do it, go ahead. But it seems to me that doing so distracts from the issue at hand: the potential implementation of mandatory safety training for kayakers.

Take your angst in another direction -- draft some legislative framework that would decrease the number of kayakers in distress while not stressing the small time kayak seller or renter, as KReddin pointed out. Even if you think it's someone's right to be uninformed and die in a kayaking mishap, each of these personal tragedies saps first responder and LEO resources. Why not get creative and try to diminish LEO burden? After all, sounds like they need all the time they can get to crack your bogeymen's skulls ;)

Ok, my email address is in my contact info should you want to talk about that line of thinking. 
Why so many odd typos ? You try typing on 6 mm virtual keys with 26 mm thumbs....


INSAYN

  • ORC_Safety
  • Sturgeon
  • *
  • **RIP...Ron, Ro, AMB, Stephen**
  • Location: Forest Grove, OR
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 5411
Clearly taking a drivers education class and paying for a drivers license hasn't really eliminated dumb drivers, road rage, and daily accidents.  It probably helped to some small degree, but only to those that took it seriously.
PSA broadcasted as TV, cable, internet commercials with graphic images would probably be more productive. 

I was one of the few folks that got on board to test and critique the Oregon ATV online safety course years ago well before it went live. It took several swings at the curriculum to get it to work correctly and get the important info worded right to hit home with the wide range of ATV operators. In the end I feel that it turned out very functional, and completely free to the user.

It is possible to do the same thing with the kayak/SUP community.  One thing though, it had better be free to take the course, free to test, and free to get the license.

In the end, if the curriculum is too broad, vague or pointless, we gain nothing from this.

If this plan/bill is just the beginning of a new way for the gov'ment to glean some easy funding, then screw them! I don't think it would be a value added bill.

It's interesting because I took the ATV class maybe 18 months ago, and could I tell you what I learned? Not particularly. I remember thinking it was interesting and valuable at the time, but I don't think there's anything that came from it that I picked up on that I am using or would use. Perhaps because the basics I already knew or simply wasn't paying attention, but if there was something in there that could've been life saving I am not sure I could tell you what it was. This isn't to say your efforts for the program are without merit, I just am likely part of the young and dumb group that take it to "pass" and then forget about it over the next few months since it was done out of requirement rather than out of a desire for education.

I guess all this to be said that I can't foresee this changing things for the kayak community and kayak deaths at large to be honest. Those that go out on the ocean in jeans and a sweatshirt without wearing their PFD are not likely to stop because 2 years ago they took an online course that told them they shouldn't do that, they're "great swimmers" and have no problems paddling with some wind of course.

If they want to reduce the kayak related tragedies then force kayakers to wear life jackets. Period. End of story. Simply saying you must carry one is quite literally the dumbest thing if your true goal is to have the kayaker/canoer/etc wearing it. If you're going in the drink in a kayak there's a very high likelihood of said PFD floating away before you can get to it, rendering it useless. Force wearing the PFD and enforce it. Everything else is stupid government lip service that isn't going to affect change. This isn't to say I'm for more government regulation, I am most certainly not, but this bill does nothing but potentially bring in pennies in exchange for little to no difference in behavior.


Honestly this was back in 2008 or 2009 I believe, and when my kids were getting big enough to ride full sized ATVs.  Prior to this new online class, Oregon adopted the nonsense that the was based rider fit to engine size (cc).  One of the reasons I volunteered to help steer that ship was my kids were going to be stuck on 50cc powered ATVs until they went to college or at least still dragging their knees on the ground being physically too big for the ATV. 

I got in there and made it very clear that engine cc is not the only way you size an atv to a rider.  Point being a 50cc two stroke will be much much harder to control than a 150cc two stroke.  A 250cc two stroke is much like riding a wild horse.  A 250cc four stroke would be equivalent to riding a sedated pony.  We pushed for Oregon to use the rider fit of the actual ATV and all of the controls, (including the engine cc depending on two stroke or four stroke.  Being able to properly steer, brake, and keep feet planted on the pegs with bent knees while seated made more sense.  The adult parent could then dictate when a youngster is ready for more power regardless if they could fit the ATV or not. 

My kids are adults now and lived through many years of riding everything thing from 50cc to 700cc ATVs.  I managed their progression and throttle limits until they mastered full control of said ATV. 

I have no doubt that the curriculum has probably changed over the years (good or bad), and a lot of it beyond rider fit was very basic knowledge of riding on various surface conditions, wearing protective gear, and how to stay on top of the ATV without rolling it. 

There is no perfect way to educate everyone, and basic education is important to get someone started.  Whether it should be manditory depends on the audience or venue, but I certainly feel that it should be free to accomplish.   I don't feel that the gov'ment should make a single dime here.  There are plenty of volunteers that take basic education to heart that they would find ways to make it available for free to the end user. 

Finally, common sense plays a huge role in life.  If a person does not possess this feature, then some basic education on the topic would be appropriate. 
 

"If I was ever stranded on a beach with only hand lotion...You're the guy I'd want with me!"   Polyangler, 2/27/15


INSAYN

  • ORC_Safety
  • Sturgeon
  • *
  • **RIP...Ron, Ro, AMB, Stephen**
  • Location: Forest Grove, OR
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 5411
The bottom line on this it's just another way for the government to put its boot on your neck.
Every law, regulation, rule, or policy is enforced by the state.
That means a man with a gun will MAKE you do what the state wants.

This forum has done more to make kayakers safe in the PNW than this bill would.

Every new yakker that comes here is constantly reminded of what they need to learn, know, and apply when going on the water.  Doesn't matter if it's lakes, ponds, or the blue.

They are pushed to go out with experienced people, to build their skills, but the Goobs know better.
Here's how it will work for you that don't understand our government.

A 2 hour class that costs $50.00 and is only available on Thursday at 1:00 PM, class size is limited to 15 people, COVID you know.   Oh the instructors are all friends of the people making the laws, got to pass some of that taxpayer money around, everyone gets to dip their beak.
The $25.00* non-motorized watercraft permit is will be $30.00 the next time the fools in Salem and Tacoma meet with a $5.00 increase every year thereafter.

*$25.00 is an arbitrary number not connected to current reality, much like anyone who believes this is a good idea.

How that Columbia Basin Endorsement working out for us?
Same stinky bag of garbage.


Yup!

Law, regulation and policy is one thing.  Free education is another - that is my angle.  8)

It always seems like when the gov'ment wants to make a new revenue stream, they come up with a new law, reg, or policy followed by several ways to stick it to the man if he doesn't comply.  Once it is in place, the price just goes up slowly over time so the masses don't notice it as obviously, all the while nothing is actually focused on anyone learning something of value.   

Education on any topic would be perfectly fine if the actual education was the primary goal over just making revenue.  Make it free to the user and that would show that there is actual genuine concern for your safety. 

Websites like NWKA, NCKA, etc.... are absolutely some of the best free education a guy can encounter for kayak/sup safety.  8)
 

"If I was ever stranded on a beach with only hand lotion...You're the guy I'd want with me!"   Polyangler, 2/27/15


INSAYN

  • ORC_Safety
  • Sturgeon
  • *
  • **RIP...Ron, Ro, AMB, Stephen**
  • Location: Forest Grove, OR
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 5411
Clearly taking a drivers education class and paying for a drivers license hasn't really eliminated dumb drivers, road rage, and daily accidents.  It probably helped to some small degree, but only to those that took it seriously.
PSA broadcasted as TV, cable, internet commercials with graphic images would probably be more productive. 

I was one of the few folks that got on board to test and critique the Oregon ATV online safety course years ago well before it went live. It took several swings at the curriculum to get it to work correctly and get the important info worded right to hit home with the wide range of ATV operators. In the end I feel that it turned out very functional, and completely free to the user.

It is possible to do the same thing with the kayak/SUP community.  One thing though, it had better be free to take the course, free to test, and free to get the license.

In the end, if the curriculum is too broad, vague or pointless, we gain nothing from this.

If this plan/bill is just the beginning of a new way for the gov'ment to glean some easy funding, then screw them! I don't think it would be a value added bill.
Good on you for the ATV participation end, but TLW being on the Tillamook scanner......... ya there were daily and a few multiple daily accidents at the sand dunes and lifeflight was involved and I believe a couple fatalities.

Sand lake is another touchy subject for me.  Years ago the state banned alcohol posession on the sand.  So that meant you could not take any adult beverages out to camp with you if you chose to sand camp vs pavement camp.  The parking lots and camp ground were county run and did not have this same rule.  As a parent with two young kids, and seeing idiots legally drinking it up on the pavement, and then illegally go ride the dunes drunk as hell got my attention.  I saw absolutely no reason to have alcohol in an offroad camp environment.  Go there to camp and ride, go somewhere else to drink if you can't be without it.

I contacted the Tilly County Commissioners and ask why they haven't adopted this same rule on the pavement.  There was one commissioner that was the top dick at the time and tried to put me in my place (wherever he thought that was).  He denied knowing anything about what I was asking of him at first, and then flat lied to me about his view on this topic.  I followed up and asked for more info from county meetings and actually got my hands on the document with the votes on this exact topic.  This dick was one of the many that voted NO on making this exact change when the state requested that they do this to match the requirements for the sand.  When I contacted him back and cornered him on this vote that he and others made, he then made it clear that somehow the county would lose out on funding as people wouldn't come down and visit if they couldn't bring their alcohol.  I called bull on that!  Not only safer due to lack of unhinged partiers, but also less congested on weekends.  That would be a Win Win for those that are there with their family to ride.   8)
 

"If I was ever stranded on a beach with only hand lotion...You're the guy I'd want with me!"   Polyangler, 2/27/15