NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => For Safety's Sake => Topic started by: ZeeHawk on July 13, 2009, 09:43:46 PM
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There's been a few threads about what you need to wear to go kayak fishing and have posted links to them below. Please read through the threads if you're new to kayak fishing, or even if you have already started, as they are essential.
There was a fatality this year at Seaside, Oregon due to improper outerwear. So let's get informed and make it the last.
Feel free to reply and add your POV in kayak fishing outerwear.
Thanks.
Z
http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2644.0.html
http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2555.0.html
http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,3175.0.html
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Thanks for posting the links, I was reading the third while you posted it.
I don't plan on doing any ocean fishing soon, I'm going to get my experience on a few lakes and streams first. The info you guys discussed was very informative and now I have more of an idea of what to wear.
I thought about hiding my credit card for a bit so it can cool down from all my kayak purchases but now it looks like it's going to warm up again. At least I'll be around to make the payments.
Thanks again for being a great and informative site.
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Yes, thanks for posting the links. I've figured out by now not to go out into the Sound in shorts & a tee shirt but still need some guidance. Here is what I currenlty have:
PFD
Neoprene chest waders with built in boots & safety belt. This seems like it would be clunky and hot; therefore unsafe
Various triathlon wetsuits
Neopreen booties and gloves
Full set of rain gear (for cycling)
It seems like I shold be able to make something from this ensemble work for immersion safety?
Thoughts? I just want to go fishing in the sound and come back alive:)
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Just saw this. I'd wear whatever triathlon wetsuit seemed most appropriate, your wetsuit booties, and definitely would have the rain gear along to fight wind-chill. I wear a raincoat over my wetsuit for that purpose, when the chill factor starts cutting in.
Personally I would never wear boot-foot neoprene waders out in the Sound or Ocean when in a yak. Maybe if I was cruising shallow and just off the beach, and wanted to step out and fly cast. Although they may be the best and warmest for mid-winter wading frozen rivers for steelhead fishing, I wouldn't want to ever take a swim in them.
In a yak, if you capsized and enough water got into your waders, it would be harder to climb back on board, and then you'd have to get the extra water out by going ashore or standing on your head or something. I don't even like wearing my breath able waders with surf booties out there. I only wear waders on my yak when I'm heading up a tidal creek, slow river, or somewhere else skinny and shallow, where I might have to get out and wade. In the summer, I can usually wet wade in the creeks and estuaries.
Wetsuit or a drysuit seems safer for the salt.
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Always wear protection from the sun's rays. I just had some skin cancer surgically removed from the side of my face yesterday, and got some other spots norched away with the liquid nitrogen. Back in my late teens and 20's, I lived on Oahu, and the sunscreens we had back then were not as effective as we were led to believe. They just gave us a false sense of security so that we fried our hides for longer periods every day.
I like the Nutrogena "Ultra Sheer dry touch" with "Helioplex" waterproof SPF 100 for being on the water. I've got the same in the SPF 45, too. I always apply it to any skin being exposed to the sun. I always get the backs of my hands and fingers, too, even when I'm going surfing or paddling.
The tops of my feet used to get fried back in the day, too. Now I only wear sandals or flip-flops outside as "transitional" footwear when changing into or out of my wetsuit. I put my socks and shoes on asap.
My doctor reminded me to always apply sunscreen on any exposed skin when heading outside in addition to wearing protective clothing. Long sleeves, wide-brimmed hat, long pants, etc, and treated to have a UPF rating of 30 or more. She warned me not to fudge, but to be religious about it!
You can buy pre-treated clothing, or buy a product to treat your current outdoor clothing. I'm going to have to do this, whether I like it or not.
Or maybe just go night fishing.
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Just saw this. I'd wear whatever triathlon wetsuit seemed most appropriate, your wetsuit booties, and definitely would have the rain gear along to fight wind-chill. I wear a raincoat over my wetsuit for that purpose, when the chill factor starts cutting in.
Personally I would never wear boot-foot neoprene waders out in the Sound or Ocean when in a yak. Maybe if I was cruising shallow and just off the beach, and wanted to step out and fly cast. Although they may be the best and warmest for mid-winter wading frozen rivers for steelhead fishing, I wouldn't want to ever take a swim in them.
In a yak, if you capsized and enough water got into your waders, it would be harder to climb back on board, and then you'd have to get the extra water out by going ashore or standing on your head or something. I don't even like wearing my breath able waders with surf booties out there. I only wear waders on my yak when I'm heading up a tidal creek, slow river, or somewhere else skinny and shallow, where I might have to get out and wade. In the summer, I can usually wet wade in the creeks and estuaries.
Wetsuit or a drysuit seems safer for the salt.
With a proper wading belt, worn correctly, and a PFD over that, I don't think there's much risk of filling your waders. I've used breathables and a paddle top in deep water areas for years. In the ocean, I step up to a full wetsuit or drysuit.
Great advice on wearing something to cut the wind over a wetsuit!
-Spot-
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Wading belt with your waders is an absolute must! I always wear one, even when just wading. However, when I'm wearing my waders paddling, I usually have the belt a bit loose, just enough for comfort. Perhaps this might be TOO loose if I capsize and can't grab the end of the belt to cinch it tight before water gets in. I usually have my pfd and maybe a splash jacket over the wading belt, making it less accessible. I suppose that if I inhaled mightily and held my breath, the belt would remain tight enough to keep any water out, but eventually I'd have to exhale (even though I like to quip, "I never exhaled!"). ;)
OK, now I think I have it: Inhale mightily when capsizing, then hold breath until I can tighten wading belt. Breathe. Right yak. Climb back on board. Loosen belt. Inventory lost gear. Get spare gear stowed beneath deck, especially the spare dry thermal top stowed in my drybag. Change tops. Resume fishing.
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I am not a fan of belt and chest wader set up only because it just about ended my kayaking career before it even got started. I watched many videos on how it was a good set up. But inexperience kicked me in the back end BIG time. I flipped my mini-x and when I hit the water, I was expecting it to just be fridged. But to my surprise it wasn't that bad. So I took my time gathering up stuff (Should have done that from on top of my kayak) when i went to reflip my kayak, i couldn't! What? It turns out the reason i flipped was in my hurry to brace against an unexpected wake, I jammed my paddle into my handle and pushed down at the exact moment I needed to brace. Now with more experience, I'm amazed that it happened that way. But the paddle acted as a huge dagger board and I could not for the life of me while in the water figure out why I couldn't flip the kayak over. I even cut my tether to my fish finder thinking maybe that had hung up on the bottom and was holding the kayak (bye bye FF).
But no worries, my pfd kept me afloat and I started to swim to shore with kayak in tow. A landing craft came by and offered assistance when I was less than 20 yards from shore. Embarrassed, I waved them off saying I could make it and I was fine. They dropped their front and said "C'mon, we are already right here and headed in." I took them up on the offer. When I got out, due to the time I spent in the water, though my belt was on fairly tight, water had seeped in through my fleece and such. I didn't realize it at the time since water is of course neutrally buoyant when you are in the water. But once on deck, I couldn't move! My jacket and clothes were SO heavy I could barely even get the jacket and fleece off of me. The guys thought I had cramped up and two big guys came to pick me up and they just about ripped their arms out of their socket. I weighed a TON! I don't know at what point I got too heavy but given my weight, had I been able to flip my kayak over, I don;t think I could have pulled myself up. Even worse, had I made it the last few feet to shore and on to the rocks, I would have had to strip down practically naked (in front of a dozen onlookers) and climbed the rocks with my kayak.
In this case, it wasn't the cold water that about did me in, it was the weight of the water. I went out immediately and bought my semi dry suit, but I still didn't fish the rest of the year (happened in August two years back, I think). Now I of course wear a semi drysuit and PFD at ALL Times (it can get hot in the sun even in Alaska) and have stirrups tied off to both handles JUST in case I need them to scamper on board.
As embarrassing as it is, I thought I'd share my near miss. DON'T BE THAT GUY (me)!
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I have to admit - I am new to immersion wear.
My brief but wet experience with it has led me to conclude even with a decent dry top on, the protection I get from my $99 gor-tex Field and stream waders is at best marginal.
I have gone into cold water several times, and each time the seal around my waist has failed and let water in. Not a lot, but enough to make me think twice.
I think 2 things are happening.
1 - the air escaping the airtight gear finds an easy exit around the drytop waist to wader seal, upsetting the drytop gasket seal.
2 - the loose waders have to wrinkle up under the waist gasket because they are being held tight against your waist. These wrinkles are all areas where there is no gasket seal, and water can continue to get in.
Granted, both times the water was not getting in fast, but I can imagine a situation where that seal would fail more severely in rough seas, or while moving around trying to self rescue.
For now I am comfortable with the combo close to shore, but if I start extending my range or going out alone I will need to do something else.
I think that once I can afford a drysuit I will get one. After the clinic yesterday I am considering going the wetsuit route though.
I really want to test all the different options, just so I know what is going to happen.
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I really want to test all the different options, just so I know what is going to happen.
You'll find wetsuits for rent at most surf shops and drysuits for rent at most kayak shops.
Definitely try before you buy.
-Spot-
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You'll find wetsuits for rent at most surf shops and drysuits for rent at most kayak shops.
Definitely try before you buy.
-Spot-
I'll second that!
Hey Sinker- Check out Kayakacademy.com for rentals as well as sales. They have the good stuff and they are in Issaquah Washington. They will mail them. The rental fees for dry suits are $35.00 per suit for the first day and $25.00 per suit for each additional day, and do special rates for extended rentals. AND, you get to apply your rental fees toward a purchase once you choose.
I got a smokin good deal on a used Kokatat Kayak Academy Silver Label so check out their used listings too.
Erik
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Just saw this. I'd wear whatever triathlon wetsuit seemed most appropriate, your wetsuit booties, and definitely would have the rain gear along to fight wind-chill. I wear a raincoat over my wetsuit for that purpose, when the chill factor starts cutting in.
Personally I would never wear boot-foot neoprene waders out in the Sound or Ocean when in a yak. Maybe if I was cruising shallow and just off the beach, and wanted to step out and fly cast. Although they may be the best and warmest for mid-winter wading frozen rivers for steelhead fishing, I wouldn't want to ever take a swim in them.
In a yak, if you capsized and enough water got into your waders, it would be harder to climb back on board, and then you'd have to get the extra water out by going ashore or standing on your head or something. I don't even like wearing my breath able waders with surf booties out there. I only wear waders on my yak when I'm heading up a tidal creek, slow river, or somewhere else skinny and shallow, where I might have to get out and wade. In the summer, I can usually wet wade in the creeks and estuaries.
Wetsuit or a drysuit seems safer for the salt.
Just got back to this post and I'd like to report that I was out on the Sound on January 1st and felt quite comfortable with my triathlon wet suit. It was a mild day but I'm sure I would have been fine if it were colder and wetter. Here is what I wore:
silk underarmor under my wetsuit. Wool socks under my booties. Gloves but I didn't need them. Rain gear over the wetsuit and my PFD. I have tested that I can get myself back into the kayak with this combo. If not I carry a Marine Radio. I practiced the turtle several times on Lake WA last summer. The only question is how long would I stay warm. I don't go too very far from where I launch so I'm assuming I would be pleanty warm until I got back to shore and dried off. One thing I did learn is that my kayak fills with a lot of water and the sponge I cary won't cut it. I now carry a bilge pump too, but I can paddle while full of water - its just a lot slower:)
I don't think I would be comfortable with the waders even if I properly utilized my safety belt. The boots are just too large and clunky. I'd be afraid that they would hang up inside the yak and it would make my escape difficult. I'll save them for steelhead fishing and wading in the surf.
Thanks for all the responses. Someday, I'll invest in a dry suit but until then I'll just have to make do with what I have.
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I just ordered a 3mm NRS Ultra John famer john wetsuit. With optional layering, I'm feeling good about this suit. In another post, I mentioned that I also have a Hydroskin longsleeve top and a Stohlquist Torrent splash jacket.
For when it gets warmer, I bought an NRS 0.5mm Hydroskin farmer john.
Both of these suits are made from terraprene, which is a limestone based material, instead of neoprene, which is made from petroleum, like my surfing wetsuits.
My two surfing wetsuits (5/4 neck entry, 4/3 back-zip) are only OK for paddling a yak. Not only are they more restrictive and less comfortable, they are rather expensive and paddling yak gives them more of a beating. The vertical back zipper on the 4/3 is uncomfortable to lean against and restrictive when bending forward. The 5/4 was expensive, so I just want to use it for surfing so it will last longer.
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I just ordered a stohlquist bPod drysuit. Does anyone have suggestions for boots to with it?
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I just ordered a stohlquist bPod drysuit. Does anyone have suggestions for boots to with it?
I have a bPod and use neoprene booties. They both protect your feet and the fabric of the socks.
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Kokatat Booties!
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In the wake of Ric Burnley's Kayak Angler outerwear test video comes this account of a close call in the cold, 45-degree ocean off Washington State. It is presented courtesy of 'Kallitype,' a regular at NorthwestKayakAnglers.com. 'Chet,' the victim of this mishap is physically well and shopping for a full dry suit.
My buddy Chet and I went to Point-no-Point to catch the last day for salmon. We got there around 8am, air temp 38, water mid-forties. We geared up and launched into a 10 mph north wind, about one foot chop, pedaled out -- I in my Hobie Adventure, Chet in his Revolution.
Got about half mile offshore to the north of Point-No-Point, 110 feet of water. We were in VHF contact, maybe 100-200 yards apart. I started marking fish after an hour or so and heard Chet holler "TER!"---thought he hooked something, then heard "I'm in the water!"
I turned and sprinted over to him. He was beside his boat, hanging on. I was bow-to-stern with his boat; he was between the boats. He was wearing NRS farmer john wetsuit bottom, a sweatshirt over cotton long-john top, and a winter jacket under his life vest.
I tried to get him onto his deck, but he was unable to kick up. After only 10 minutes in the waterhe was getting immobile. His wet clothing was weighing him down (he weighs over 200 lbs). He had tried to kneel on his seat and reach his tackle box on the rear deck, and got too close to the gunwale and went overboard. The wind took his boat about 10 yards away, and he had to swim for it. That took what energy he had.
He got one hand under my stern bungees, and held onto his boat with the other, and got one leg up on my stern. I got a good grip on his lifejacket with my right hand and pedaled for shore. It took me about 20 minutes to get us into the shallows. He was able to stand on his own, but was pretty blue and hypothermic.
He got his wet clothes off, dry ones on, and into his truck with the heater going while I retrieved the boats. I am rethinking my choice of Kokatat Goretex bibs and Koke semi-dry top with folding Velcro neck seal! The waist overlap-folding seal seems to be tight, but I intend a pool test this week, including going in head-first with the neck folded over. Any leakage, and it's full dry suit for me.
I didn't blink an eye at spending $1800 on a new Hobie, but thought $500 for the Meridian Angler drysuit was too much! I have a different opinion today. Chet and I had talked in the past about clothing for winter paddling, and he was content with the wetsuit farmer John, but is now of a different mind. And---his VHF was in the boat, not in his life-vest. He could not have made an SOS call if I had been out of earshot.
"Be prepared" has taken on new meaning, no longer theoretical. The Mirage drive saved his life. I could not have paddled to shore and held him with one hand. God bless the guy who invented the Mirage drive! I intend to have a throw line, and equip my boat with pad-eyes and lifelines. My sit-in sea kayaks all had lifelines along the gunnels, now I see how useful they can be. And some exit and re-entry practice can really pay off.
Kallitype shared additional thoughts afforded by the luxury of hindsight. "In retrospect, I might have tried harder to get my pal up onto my back deck, and leave his boat to be picked up after I got him to shore but at the time felt the need to get moving toward shore as quickly as possible. He was exhausted but relatively stable between the two kayaks. I considered using my VHF to call a mayday and get CG involved, but that would have meant he'd spend more time in the water waiting. A water temperature of 45 degrees does not allow much leeway for trying things!" Kallitype said.
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You are a hero kallitype! That is truly harrowing story.
Wer the sweatshirt and winter jacket cotton? I try not to wear cotton on the water when it is cold because of the absorption. The nice thing about polyster is that it does not absorb much water and thus does not gain much weight when it is wet - especially compared to cotton.
If Chet is reading then he can probably answer, but if he is not and you know the answer kallitype please respond. Does he think it was the extra weight of the soaked cotton material that kept him from kicking back onto the boat? If his upper body was really heavy due to soaked clothing that sure seems like it would make it tough to get back in the kayak. I am curious because so far I have been using a semi-dry top and waders. I have not water tested my outfit yet, but perhaps I should next time out. I am glad to hear he is safe and doing well! Once again congratulations on saving your friends life!
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Thanks for the report and for your heroic efforts saving your friend.
I think you may also be saving others by encouraging us to test our gear and practice recovering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the report and for your heroic efforts saving your friend.
I think you may also be saving others by encouraging us to test our gear and practice recovering.
+1 Yes, Ter, thanks for that! You referred to Chet's wetsuit as "bottoms" in the beginning of your account, but called it a "farmer john" later on. I'm a bit confused as to which type of wetsuit Chet was wearing. Bad idea anyway to combine wetsuit bottoms with a sweatshirt and cotton thermal top. I never wear any cotton on the water any more, when paddling. I wear jeans in my 16' johnboat.
45 F water bites hard! I don't like anything much colder than 46 F water with my 5mm full surfing suit. It take perfect 3 to 5 foot point waves to suck me out into that kind of cold
A few years back, a surf fisherman drowned while wading in the surf at Ocean Shores. He was wearing a wetsuit underneath his waders, got knocked down by a wave, and his waders filled completely with water. He couldn't make it back in and succumbed while fighting the current. The wetsuit under the waders didn't do him any good. End of story.
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Just laid out my duds for tomorrow's trip (just a little flat lake in WA) and checked every label to make sure there was zero cotton in any of it! I'm still using waders and a non-dry top so I'll avoid testing things until I acquire the right gear.
When I fished there yesterday the water temp was 46 and the air was 42. Hoping to land a larger Rainbow legally this time!
iHop
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Chet's a lucky dude, and you're a good fishing bro for not losing your head.
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Thanks Demonick---we're both in full Kokatat dry suits now.
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I plan to head out into the Cove here to practice re-entries some more. Also maybe play a little on some mushy small waves. I need to get my downwind sail system dialed, too, and see how it handles and if I can steer it well enough with my paddle so I don't have to get a rudder system.
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Chet was wearing a NRS 3mm "Farmer John", which leaves the neck and shoulders and arms bare. He had cotton long-sleeve undershirt. cotton sweatshirt, and a heavy cotton insulated jacket. He also is pretty heavy, big gut---over 200# at about 5'8", and not in very good shape. He made several attempts to pull himself over the gunnel, but could not kick himself up onto the boat, the combo of spending 5-8 minutes in the cold water until I got over there,with the added weight of the soaked clothing, made it too much for him to get back aboard. Plus, he got his head pretty well soaked in the fall, which helped chill him fast. The downside of a wet suit is just that---it fills with very cold water, which takes a good deal of your body heat to warm up.
Whatever you choose to wear, practice self-rescue in realistic conditions so you're sure you can get back on your boat, without gear loss or worse. And it's amazing how little wind it takes to push your boat out of reach!! I am not sure about tethering yourself to the boat, I've seen good arguments for and agin.
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I will throw another curve to this, I wear a drysuit. My question is what do most folks use to layer under their drysuit. I just bought a Kokatat Polortec union suit as my first layer. What other piece's of clothing do you wear so you don't get to hot but are not cold and wet with sweat.
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Fleece tops and bottoms for me, and sometimes polyester shirt and exofficio boxer briefs. If you're hot, dangle your legs in the water to cool off, or take a dip and climb back in. Reality check right there too. If you aren't willing to dip in the water to cool off for fear of not being able to get back in the boat, you shouldn't be out there in the first place.
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I had a situation that was close to that, my brother in law and myself were fishing for pinks out of Dash Point State Park this summer, and he had already pulled one pink on his fly rod without any problems. The second pink he hooked onto, a large buck decided to take a couple of laps around him and on the second time around, he got his fly rod snagged up with his bait caster rod that was in a vertical pole holder behind him and he got off balance and he went over. Luckily we were only in about 8ft of water when this occurred and maybe 75 yards from shore. Best thing was he didn't loss his fly rod or the fish, when I got over to him he had an iron grip on his fly rod and the kayak. He passed the rod to me while he tried to climb back onto the kayak but after a few tries he tired and gave up and started swimming for shore with the kayak until he regained his footing on the bottom, at which time I passed the rod with the fish still fighting back to him and he landed the fish on shore. Erik was in waders with a belt, but no splash top, by the time he arrived at the beach his wadders had filled with probably at least 5-10 gallons of water making it very difficult for him to walk. We were so lucky that this happened so close to shore and during the summer, when water and air temps were warmer. I've come to the personal conclusion that if I'm on the water I'm in my dry suit, or if it summer time, and it's hot I'd wear clothing that wouldn't impede me re-entering my kayak while soaked like nylon pants or shorts. The other lesson that I learned from this incident was, less is better, you don't need the whole tackle box, take only what you need with you, and take only what you are willing to lose. Also if your not using something store it inside the hull or tether it to your kayak, anything not attached is as good as gone. Second, if fishing with more than one rod, stow the unused rod in the hull or in a horizontal location that is out of the way of being tangled up while fighting another fish. And third practice, practice, practice, it's always better to learn in a controlled situation, without losing gear.
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Some waders come with neoprene gravel guards to keep junk from getting into your boots while walking around in muck. Since I am not walking in my kayak, I pull them up above my knees to help protect fish from poking holes in my waders. This also, in theory should slow down water flow to below my knees in the event of water entry.
I have huli'd hard in the surf more than once, and had to swim a bit. Have yet to get a trickle between the dry top and waders. I attribute this to being a bit chubby in the belt area, as well as wearing puffy fleece that seams to seal things around the waist.
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I am glad to hear that in both situations you guys keep your cool and everyone ended up safe.
What I wear under my dry suit depends on the weather. Early season or on warm days I may wear a non cotton top and nylon pants. As it get gets colder I add poly pro long underwear top and bottoms, fleece pants and a fleece jacket or vest. I prefer the vest over a jacket to reduce the bulk on my arms.
For those of you having a hard time getting back into your kayaks here is a link to some good information of using a paddle float and rescue stirrup.
http://www.topkayaker.net/Articles/Instruction/PaddleFloat.htm (http://www.topkayaker.net/Articles/Instruction/PaddleFloat.htm)
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Ditto ndogg. Depends on weather plus what type fishing I'm doing. If I'm just anchored(trolley syst)say for dino's, it's: Kokatat Super Nova(always on the Sound) and Patagonia
capilene long john bottoms(med or light wt) and either a light wt capilene top or med wt samo
with turtlneck zip. May add Polarfleece 200 pants if real cold.Fleece jacket. When trolling(Mirage Drive), I'm usually in Lt wt capilene underwear and maybe a fleece vest. Get real hot quick. I always carry extra stuff in a dry bag stowed away in case a change up is needed. Usually will wear long wool socks over a poly foot liner and NTS neoprene booties.
Summer Bass fishing: usually nylon swim trunks, wicking T-shirt,Tevas.
The Sound or the ocean will be benevolent if it gives you that ONE chance of survival. Don't
forget your head. Baseball cap or wide brimmed OR hat. If real cold, fleece balaclava or ski hat. Also.Consider chapstick and sunscreen as outerwear.
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Thanks for all the sobering replys. The take home for me is that I should continually assess & test what I'm wearing specific to the gear and conditions. There are a couple of unknowns for me from my last test and the big one is water temp. I don't know how a dip in the really cold water will impact my ability to re-enter the kayak since my test was in Lk WA. Anyone want to schedule a controlled test in the Sound?
Seriously, is there a way to schedule or plan a cold water survival clinic where guys can test their gear in an environment that is safe (rescue swimmers, change of clothes nearby and waiting, warm fire on the beach, etc.) I'm guessing the liability is a bit too high:)
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I'm guessing the liability is a bit too high:)
You guessed it. Good luck finding a shop/organization to oversee that! Even a signed liability waiver isn't a 100% guarantee someone can't be sued depending on the circumstances.
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Thanks for all the sobering replys. The take home for me is that I should continually assess & test what I'm wearing specific to the gear and conditions. There are a couple of unknowns for me from my last test and the big one is water temp. I don't know how a dip in the really cold water will impact my ability to re-enter the kayak since my test was in Lk WA. Anyone want to schedule a controlled test in the Sound?
Seriously, is there a way to schedule or plan a cold water survival clinic where guys can test their gear in an environment that is safe (rescue swimmers, change of clothes nearby and waiting, warm fire on the beach, etc.) I'm guessing the liability is a bit too high:)
I'm down to meet at golden gardens, build a fire then paddle out and dunk ourselves a few times. Come back in and huddle by the fire. Right now it is about 35 degrees out and I'm guessing the water is about 50.
How dry is your dry suit?
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I'd think the surface temp in the Sound would be closer to 45 than 50 this time of year. Its been hovering at around 46 or 47 out here on the coast since late Nov. It isn't any warmer than 46 in the Strait, either. I think the coldest water I've felt in WA (at sea level) is off the mouth of the Elwha.
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I have not fished in the ocean yet but hope to this year. I'm still gathering the proper apparel. So far I have a 3mm farmer john like Chet in the story plus the booties and was planning on getting a dry top to go with it. After attending Spot's class awhile back and talking to my friends who surf and scuba dive, I am wondering if 3mm is adequate. Any thoughts? It seems others' suits are thicker. Or, can I layer something under the farmer john? Does anyone use a farmer john and dry top combo? I'm making my kayak gear shopping list. Thanks.
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I have not fished in the ocean yet but hope to this year. I'm still gathering the proper apparel. So far I have a 3mm farmer john like Chet in the story plus the booties and was planning on getting a dry top to go with it. After attending Spot's class awhile back and talking to my friends who surf and scuba dive, I am wondering if 3mm is adequate. Any thoughts? It seems others' suits are thicker. Or, can I layer something under the farmer john? Does anyone use a farmer john and dry top combo? I'm making my kayak gear shopping list. Thanks.
Why not a waders and dry top combo? It seems like that's what most start out with(including myself) and it works great.
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I started out with a 4mm wet suit. It works for some folks but for me it plain sucked. Once you are wet, you are wet and with any wind you are now cold. Granted you can cover with rain pants etc to block the wind but I didn't care for all the extra bulk. On the other side of the coin when its 65-70 and sunny on the salt in the summer you roast alive and sped more time splashing water on yourself than fishing. On long hard paddles in the heat I used to just plain cook! And lastly with no relief zip you have two choices, run back to shore every time you have to pee or go in the suit and sit in it all day. If its all you have go with it, but if I were you I would consider what Rawk mentioned above (waders/drytop) or even look at dry suits. The Stolquist Bpods are often on sale and aren't unreasonable for the level of protection they provide.
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I have not fished in the ocean yet but hope to this year. I'm still gathering the proper apparel. So far I have a 3mm farmer john like Chet in the story plus the booties and was planning on getting a dry top to go with it. After attending Spot's class awhile back and talking to my friends who surf and scuba dive, I am wondering if 3mm is adequate. Any thoughts? It seems others' suits are thicker. Or, can I layer something under the farmer john? Does anyone use a farmer john and dry top combo? I'm making my kayak gear shopping list. Thanks.
Why not a waders and dry top combo? It seems like that's what most start out with(including myself) and it works great.
Yes, I've been using waders already for lakes/bays. Guess I'm still needing the top.
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C-run, I just bought a 3mm NRS Ultra John ($90) and a thinner Hydroskin longsleeve top (to layer under it) for wearing when using my SOT in the ocean here AFTER it warms up late this coming Spring. Its too cold for that kind of garb right now, especially if you think you might capsize in the surf. Right now, I would suck it up and squirm into my 5/4 winter surfing wetsuit if I went yak-fishing on my Tarpon.
My new NRS ultra john has a 2-way (unzips from either end) relief zipper running down the front.
Following is a rather long and rambling discussion of wetsuits, etc:
By itself, with no top, a 3mm farmer john doesn't have the full coverage and is not thick enough for being in the water very long when the water temps fall below the high 50's.
for example, I prefer a 4/3mm for temps ranging from 57 F up to low 60's for surfing, and don't even own a full 3mm surfing wetsuit, since the water doesn't get warm enough often enough for one here in the NW. Summer temp ranges on the WA coast average 51 to 58, and it rare to see 60+ water along the coast, although we do get that briefly at times during the late summer, especially in El Nino years.
For surfing here, 4/3mm full suit has a wider range and is money better spent. (My spring/summer suit is a 4/3, which has 4mm torso and thighs, and 3mm arms and lower legs).
My 5/4 winter suit felt much too warm one day when it hit the 80's here and the water was around 59. But I was warm and loose while surfing, and that's better than being cold.
But I' always wet and immersed when out surfing. Do a lot of "duck-diving" under waves.
That's not the story when yak fishing. If I don't capsize my SOT, I stay dry above my knees. And if I do capsize, I am confident that I can get back on my yak quickly enough to avoid hypothermia from the cold water, even if I'm wearing only my new 3mm farmer john and Hydroskin top combo. Then I would just have to worry about wind-chill. My splash top or cheap packable or lightweight rain gear (not the heavy pvc stuff!) are decent wind-chill protection when worn over a wetsuit.
On warm days in the late Spring, Summer and early Fall, a 5/4 full surfing wetsuit has felt like overkill every time I have opted to wear that out in my yak. I got the 3mm NRS ultra john and longsleeve Hydroskin top for wearing on those kind of days.
I think I can avoid capsizing on flat water (since I won't go out fishing in high winds with big chop), so I would be tempted to wear my 3mm farmer john, Hydroskin top, and Splash jacket over that if I were going out on the Sound or Canal, except for when its as cold as it is right now, with more snow in the forecast.
That combo would be what I choose to fish inside the Harbor entrance here after it warms up some. I would also bring along some cheap rain pants to wear over my farmer john on cooler breezier days, for protection from splashes and wind chill. Those shouldn't hold in water if you have to haul yourself back onto your yak. I feel much safer in a wetsuit with rainpants over it than I would in breathable waders with a belt.
When I'm paddling up certain tidal creeks in my Ultimate 12, where I often get out and wade, I wear my breathable waders, since I know I'm not going to capsize the U-12 unless I start chugging beers or whiskey and then stand up to fly cast while attempting to sing like Joe Cocker. (Might even lose it and fall out without capsizing under those circumstances). Water warms up in the creeks and estuaries here in the summer, anyway, and then I wear board shorts under lightweight rain pants (sun/bug protection for the legs).
Right now, however, its so cold (water 46, air in 30's, more snow on the way) that I have absolutely no desire to launch a yak anywhere. If I did, I would opt to wear my 5/4 winter surfing wetsuit with rain gear over it for wind-chill protection, but I'll gladly wait until it warms up again.
If I had the extra $$, I'd go out and buy a Kokotat Angler Suit or full drysuit, but if I wait until it warms up a little, I can get away with using my wetsuits.
I am self-employed with no set schedule, and always have plenty of other things to do at all times. I can pick my days to fish. So I have been in the habit of cherry-picking my go-outs based on decent weather and conditions, rather than having to fish just on weekends or picking a known "day off from work" in the future, and then having to head out then, regardless of the conditions, if I want to go at all. I can actually attempt to schedule my work around the good surfing and fishing! >:D
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So A full Wet suit is OK with a windbreaker? Should help My loose a few Pounds...
I have not fished in the ocean yet but hope to this year. I'm still gathering the proper apparel. So far I have a 3mm farmer john like Chet in the story plus the booties and was planning on getting a dry top to go with it. After attending Spot's class awhile back and talking to my friends who surf and scuba dive, I am wondering if 3mm is adequate. Any thoughts? It seems others' suits are thicker. Or, can I layer something under the farmer john? Does anyone use a farmer john and dry top combo? I'm making my kayak gear shopping list. Thanks.
Why not a waders and dry top combo? It seems like that's what most start out with(including myself) and it works great.
Yes, I've been using waders already for lakes/bays. Guess I'm still needing the top.
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I ruled out a full wet suit for myself due to the amount of restriction of arm movement. I tried a few on, and immediately found that I did not want to paddle with rubber restricting my arm movement. I did consider a Farmer John wetsuit mated with a dry top, but finally found I was comfortable with breathable waders (I already had) and a dry top with latex neck and wrist seals.
My first trip to the salt was a steep learning experience for me (remember that Rawkfish?). I was dumped over backwards on my way out through a relatively bumpy surf day. The dump was in 10-15 feet of water, and I went completely under water, popped up, found the kayak, and quickly remounted and finished pounding out past the surf zone. I felt completely dry.
Again, on the way back to shore the waves where surfing waves and I got some cheers from the kids on shore for my vertical "huli". I was dunked a few times as waves crashed over my head on the way in, and I was completely dry and comfortable in the end. Not a drop got past my seals.
Only thing better would be a dry suit. And until I get lose some weight and can keep it off, I'm going to stick with my current setup.
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Yes, a full surfing wetsuit is a bit restrictive on the arms when paddling yak, but not that bad if you don't have to paddle very far, like under a mile or so each way. I wouldn't want to do an all day long distance paddle in one. I did about 6 or 7 miles in the Sound with it, and it wasn't bad. They are designed to allow a lot of arm movement, though. A diving suit is really restrictive.
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C-run, I just bought a 3mm NRS Ultra John ($90) and a thinner Hydroskin longsleeve top (to layer under it) for wearing when using my SOT in the ocean here AFTER it warms up late this coming Spring. Its too cold for that kind of garb right now, especially if you think you might capsize in the surf. Right now, I would suck it up and squirm into my 5/4 winter surfing wetsuit if I went yak-fishing on my Tarpon.
My new NRS ultra john has a 2-way (unzips from either end) relief zipper running down the front.
Following is a rather long and rambling discussion of wetsuits, etc:
By itself, with no top, a 3mm farmer john doesn't have the full coverage and is not thick enough for being in the water very long when the water temps fall below the high 50's.
I have the NRS 3mm Farmer John also (it's the grizzly model so it will fit ::) ) I wear a dry top with it. I've been looking at getting a 2 or 3mm wetsuit jacket to wear with it. That would be 5mm on the torso, but only 2 or 3mm in the arms. I haven't been to the open salt, just bays so far but find the farmer john comfortable. The one time I tried a drysuit, I thought I would pass out from the choking latex on my largeish neck. My dry suit has latex arm cuffs but the neoprene neck and is very comfortable.
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Indyflyer, I might just get the NRS jacket to wear over mine, so I'll feel better protected when its cold.
I really don't like to subject my expensive surfing 5/4 to the rigors of paddling an SOT yak. Its made from the newest, stretchiest lightweight neoprene (allows incredible freedom of movement, like its hardly there), and can be torn easily if it hangs on something sharp or pointy. My older 4/3 full suit might be a little tougher in that regard, but I think the farmer john and top would be a more versatile and comfortable combo for paddling.
Way too much stuff sticking up on a yak that could easily snag my suit if I'm not careful. My surfboards are all incredibly smooth, and I try to never let the fins hit me.
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Thanks for all the additional input. Now I have a plan.
Chris
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OK, after searching the forum, I have this question aimed at Kokatat owners/ambassadors. I live and fish in Alaska. I'm looking to buy a semi dry suit. I was poised to buy a T3 but then a helpful person pointed out that given the 20% annual REI discount, a lightweight Gore-Tex was about the same price.
So... Light weight Gore-tex or the new T3 Angler? Can someone help the boy....
Thanks....
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I have a Kokatat T3 Super Nova Angler which I wear even on freshwater in the summer. It has held up well over the last 3 seasons. I rinse it well after each trip and treat the latex wrist gaskets and zippers every few trips. I am not sure of the advantage of Gore-Tex over the Tropos. I am not much of a sweater so the Tropos breathes well enough for me. Is Gore-Tex more durable? More UV resistant? Breathe better?
Tropos versus Gore-Tex: http://www.kayakacademy.com/pages/store/tropos.html (http://www.kayakacademy.com/pages/store/tropos.html)
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This has got to be the longest thread, ever, spanning 6 years?? Glad you saved it for me as I am convinced that my late, summer-fall trips to the deep Strait chasing coho have been unnecessarily risky. I'll be retuning in a Super Nova in a couple of weeks. Being a recreational outdoor athlete from the desert, I am an efficient sweater, so a little concerned about heat. I have experienced huli's (where does that word come from) a couple of times, normally, immediately ending my day. Thankfully close to shore. Now that I frequent open water, I must listen to sound safety advice. Thank you NWKA! And don't take this thread away.
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Congrats on the suit...best money spent in our area, I think. My take on huli is Hawaiian rotisserie meat. Huli...rotisserie. ..gurgle
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This has got to be the longest thread, ever, spanning 6 years?? Glad you saved it for me as I am convinced that my late, summer-fall trips to the deep Strait chasing coho have been unnecessarily risky. I'll be retuning in a Super Nova in a couple of weeks. Being a recreational outdoor athlete from the desert, I am an efficient sweater, so a little concerned about heat. I have experienced huli's (where does that word come from) a couple of times, normally, immediately ending my day. Thankfully close to shore. Now that I frequent open water, I must listen to sound safety advice. Thank you NWKA! And don't take this thread away.
I get hot easily too and I have that suit. Pouring water over your legs and arms helps a lot, as the evaporation immediately starts to cool those areas. Between that and pouring (fresh) water on my head I've managed to stay cool enough even in the sun.
I also wear breathable, light clothes underneath when in warm conditions. There is a lot of good advice on the forums to dress for the water temperature and not the air temperature. I agree with that, sort of, but nonetheless comfort is a safety factor too as you won't make good decisions if you're overheated all day. So decide for yourself, but I think using these measures you can stay reasonably cool in that suit.
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Thanks, Captain. I agree, a wet hat sometimes does the trick.
DK
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Thanks, Captain. I agree, a wet hat sometimes does the trick.
DK
I paddle in a wetsuit that's black I carry my "air conditioner" a measuring cup on a string 2 cups I think , also water in my wetsuit boots help keep me cooler. Sometimes just dunking the feet help also.
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With regard to the term "huli", I believe we've borrowed it from Polynesian outrigger canoe culture where it refers to capsizing, often from leaning too far on the opposite side of the ama. I did a short trip with an outrigger canoe club on Maui this past spring and the said they do huli recovery practice about once a month. I asked about the term and they said that it meant "to curl over like a wave" in Hawaiian. However, the whole canoe club was pretty much made up of retired haoles, so who knows.
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I resemble that remark! a couple of times. You can add that to the new glossary section of the website if they make one. You guys talk in code sometimes, so I'll just risk sounding stupid and start asking.Thanks.
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no such thing as a stupid question....only stupid mistakes (and some are "God forbid", fatal).....ask away. It's the easy way to get info from those with more experience than oneself................
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I am moving to Alaska this May/June and I am wondering what would be the best combo with what I already have for outerwear. I plan on fishing lakes but would like to get out onto the salt (homer, seward) on calm days.
For outerwear that I can bring, I have:
4/3 mil surfing wet-suit what I usually wear in CA on the ocean)
Waders that someone got me for xmas: http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Company-Neoprene-Stocking-Waders/dp/B003TWHNJC
Farmer john wet-suit bottom/overalls that I believe are 5/6 because they are MUCH thicker than my 3/4 (can't find a tag with thickness)
Rain pants, rain coat
As of now I don't have the money for a dry suit, but I might be able to save enough by the time I move.
I appreciate any advice!
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I am moving to Alaska this May/June and I am wondering what would be the best combo with what I already have for outerwear. I plan on fishing lakes but would like to get out onto the salt (homer, seward) on calm days.
For outerwear that I can bring, I have:
4/3 mil surfing wet-suit what I usually wear in CA on the ocean)
Waders that someone got me for xmas: http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Company-Neoprene-Stocking-Waders/dp/B003TWHNJC
Farmer john wet-suit bottom/overalls that I believe are 5/6 because they are MUCH thicker than my 3/4 (can't find a tag with thickness)
Rain pants, rain coat
As of now I don't have the money for a dry suit, but I might be able to save enough by the time I move.
I appreciate any advice!
Hmmm.......I'm in the "gotta have a dry suit" camp. BUT I fish alone, mainly saltwater and year round. I have taken my kids out on lakes with nothing but normal clothes and PFD. I wore my drysuit even though airtemp was close to 70's in case something happened. Peak of the summer, we swim in the lakes so you could get by with just a PFD if the mosquitoes don't eat you alive.
Air temps in the summer will be in the 50's and 60's mainly. Water temps in the ocean I'd say is in the forties.
I don't know how well the wet suits work. Maybe some of the folks who tried them and have some colder temp experience can chime in. People canoe here all the time without any immersion gear on the lakes and I'd say my kayak is a hell of a lot more stable than a canoe.
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I was thinking about bringing my canoe for lakes... but I agree, why canoe and fish when you can kayak and fish?
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I am looking into purchasing a drysuit but seems all the ones I click on are not my size, I am 5.11 & 165lbs my price range is 700 or less. any thoughts or tips are welcome. I have zero knowledge in this subject.
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I am looking into purchasing a drysuit but seems all the ones I click on are not my size, I am 5.11 & 165lbs my price range is 700 or less. any thoughts or tips are welcome. I have zero knowledge in this subject.
This is the one I use and I am really happy with it. Having the neoprene neck gasket is way more comfortable than latex. We used to have a 15% discount at Outdoor Play for NWKA members. They are based in Hood River and have always been good to deal with. There is a sizing chart on their website. Sometimes these go on sale for under $500 but not likely before you need it.
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Thanks for the info, I looked at this earlier today, They are back ordered as most things are in this era. I have added my email to there "notify me when in list".
So now I must be patient, fisherman are patient right..lol
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Since they have no dry suits in stock, this isn't working right now, but if you get a chance in the future, go to the Kokatat Custom Shop (https://kokatat.com/custom (https://kokatat.com/custom)), pick a suit similar to the one you want and go through their sizing questions. It'll tell you your correct size.
I'd have guessed one size larger then what their system returned - and they were right.
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any feed back on: Kokatat Hydrus 3.0 Swift Entry Dry Suit w/ Relief Zipper & Dry Socks, my health does not deserve short cuts (lesson learned)
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any feed back on: Kokatat Hydrus 3.0 Swift Entry Dry Suit w/ Relief Zipper & Dry Socks, my health does not deserve short cuts (lesson learned)
First: ???
Second: If you're looking at suits in Hydrus 3L why aren't you looking at the Supernova in Hydrus 3L. Kokatat are really nice folks, if you haven't already, call them and ask when they'll have your size in stock. Also ask here - someone might know of a shop one in stock.