NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => Let's Talk Kayak Fishing => Topic started by: DARice on September 22, 2018, 11:46:22 AM
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I've just moved from PDX to S. WA state. The downside is that makes my favorite spot, Pacific City, just that much farther away. The great news is that I'm only 20 minutes from decent Kokanee fishing. So, it's time to mount a downrigger on my Revo 13. I'll also use it in the Columbia for salmon trolling, I suppose.
There are great threads on mounting a downrigger, and I'd appreciate opinions on the most convenient unit for kayak use. The Scotty Laketroller is inexpensive, and the horizontal winding mechanism seems that it may be more convenient than the Cannon vertical mechanism. The Scotty Depthmaster adds a longer boom and I assume is more durable, but I haven't seen those units in person. Meanwhile, I see the Cannon Lake Troll being used by several on the board. Either way, I'll rely on my FF for depth readings and it seems I'll need to replace the ss cable with braid.
Thanks!
Dave
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Dave,
This is what I did with a Scotty Laketroller on my Outback. I've used it quite a bit in the local lakes to good effect.
Kevin
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Speaking of Scotty Laketrollers, I have one I used twice for Kokanee I would be willing to part with. I never use it since there are no kokanee near me and have no plans to in the future. It has 65 pound braid on it rather than the steel wire. Pm me if you are interested.
I had it mounted behind me on the cooler I would put the kokanee in. That way it was closer to the centerline and further back so it would not affect the tracking of the kayak as much.
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I've mounted a Scotty Laketroller on my 13' Trident, a Scotty Depthmaster on my Revolution, and a Cannon Lake-Troll on my Revolution. The Cannon Lake-Troll is my favorite pedal kayak downrigger setup. The Scotty Laketroller is a more primitive downrigger than the Cannon Lake-Troll, but if you want to try out downrigger trolling for little money, the Scotty Laketroller is adequate for kokanee fishing.
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I've had both, and one looking like my scotty is in the thread, lol. I liked the scotty for simplicity in my Trident 13. I had a mount to that fit right in the molded center of the hatch cover.. I needed to lighten the drag and use both hands to lower the downrigger, but there's no counter. I foot per revolution up to 75 feet worked fine. On a hookup you have to loosen the tightening bolt in order to crank it up and then tighten it when you get to the top. Use a bungee. All of that is hard to do when you have a fish on, so I tended to leave it down, but that's a bit dangerous. I have plans and can send you pics, etc. of a cannon mounted on my revo. The mount is solid and won't break free even if you flip in a big wave in the current. Proven fact. It's nice to have the counter and I can hold the pole in one hand and back off on the handle to get to depth and re-tighten without setting the pole down yet. I've now dropped to 5 lb balls and 60-b braid. Send a PM if you want to call or get pictures...
John
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it seems I'll need to replace the ss cable with braid.
You don't need to replace the stainless steel cable which comes on downriggers with braided line, but steel cable has an irritating hum, which you can eliminate by replacing the steel cable with braided line. Braided line can also be thinner and thus have lower drag than steel cable. Most braided downrigger line is 250 pound test, but I use Scotty 175 pound Spectra low-drag braided downrigger line. I don't use braided fishing line on my downriggers because of the risk of breaking the line and losing an expensive downrigger weight if I hook the weight on something.
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I've had both, and one looking like my scotty is in the thread, lol.
Yep, that is your old one :).
Kevin
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I fished two rods this year for kokanee and even stacked both rods on my downrigger -- that was fun! My "downrigger" is a 30 inch long butt section of a stiff rod with a line counter reel (with braid) on it, and the rod goes in my crate just behind my seat. It works for me.
Using this method, I don't have anything rigidly mounted to my kayak and I use one of my "pvc rod holders" in my crate so there are numerous configurations if I want to DR off the right or left side of my kayak (or not at all). I've snagged my DR ball before - It's not a problem since I set the drag of my Line counter reel fairly light just a little more than the lead and with the clicker ON if I'm close to the bottom or in snaggy areas. So it's not a really dangerous situation getting the ball snagged. Worst case, I could cut the braid if the lead doesn't come loose. The drag wouldn't flip my kayak or pull the rod out of the crate (though it is leashed).
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I just recently finished my first DIY on my 2016 PA 14. I do a lot of downrigger fishing, and deep, 100’ +, so this was important to me. A lot of people do use the
Mini-Lake Troller, or the equivalent Canon DR.
For me a couple of important points were that I really like an actual depth counter. Also, I want to be comfortable with an 8 lb ball.
This meant that I went with the first level of Scotty’s manual DR’s that has a depth counter, but also has a boom that is solid enough for a heavier ball. The mod was easy in my opinion, and I generally consider myself only moderately ‘Handy’ in the garage.
I used a Scotty 1050. I easily removed the boom. Cut off 6-7” ?, replaced the boom. This meant that it was a shorter reach for my arm out to the ball, but more importantly it reduces the weight strain that is being placed on the side of your Yak.
I then cut a piece of that white kitchen cutting board material. (Poly-Something-ethene??). This needs to be cut to a size to allow the square base of the DR to bolt to the cutting board.
Next I used 2 what I think Hobie calls ‘Flat Universal H-rail mounts’. It’s a 3”x4” little table top that mounts to an H-rail.
This becomes the base which you bolt the cutting board to, and of course DR base is mounted to that.
The last thing I did was angle the whole DR, about 30 degrees towards the sky. Again, to take a little weight strain of the kayak.
You may not have H-Rails, but you likely could rig some kind of those flat black gear plates that go on the side gunnel area of your Yak.
Anyway, I’m quite happy with it. But again, if you aren’t concerned with a heavier ball, and deeper depths, then the mini lake troller is prob fine.
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I got one of those also....hmmm picture does not want to post ? It's a Cannon Unitrol ST 5 with a few mods.
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I got one of those also....hmmm picture does not want to post ? It's a Cannon Unitrol ST 5 with a few mods.
John, without the seat in place in the kayak I'm having trouble telling from your picture where you positioned your Unitrol. Could you post a picture of you sitting in the kayak and turning the downrigger's crank? Better yet, a picture of you actually trolling, showing your entire downrigger setup?
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Agreed, nice looking DR, look forward to an action photo, or seat in place, etc. thx for sharing.
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I use a Scotty Laketroller and have been happy with it after I replaced the cable with 65lb braid. It's very light, the horizontal winding is more intuitive to me and I like the shorter boom on a kayak a lot more than one that I had tried previously with a longer boom on it. It drops very close to one foot of line per turn, and does it longer full of the thinner braid than it did with the thicker cable. If I'm using a downrigger, I'm usually using a linecounter reeel so not having a counter on the downrigger hasn't made much of a difference to me.
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I had been thinking of this for quite some time. In the end I decided to spend more money to install an electric DR on my outback (I am lazy and didn't feel like hand lining the ball up from the deep over and over). I went with the Cannon Mag 5 ST because it had a narrower footprint than the Scotty. I fabricated an aluminum mount using the rear gimbal tube and a piece of gear trac (to anchor the front end). A rotating base allows me to keep the 2 foot boom close to the yak to minimize the lateral torque. Battery is kept in the H-crate behind my seat. I had a chance to try it out last week and I am thoroughly impressed. Battery lasted all day. 4 lb ball allowed me to get to the depths I wanted and I could pedal it all day at 2-3 mpg SOG. I did replace the steel cable with braid and used a snubber to minimize the strain on the line. I can easily reach the up/down switch, view the counter and lower the line using the clutch on the DR.
Jason
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Dangs... now that is a solid Kayak DR.
Thanks for sharing!
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I had been thinking of this for quite some time. In the end I decided to spend more money to install an electric DR on my outback (I am lazy and didn't feel like hand lining the ball up from the deep over and over). I went with the Cannon Mag 5 ST because it had a narrower footprint than the Scotty. I fabricated an aluminum mount using the rear gimbal tube and a piece of gear trac (to anchor the front end). A rotating base allows me to keep the 2 foot boom close to the yak to minimize the lateral torque. Battery is kept in the H-crate behind my seat. I had a chance to try it out last week and I am thoroughly impressed. Battery lasted all day. 4 lb ball allowed me to get to the depths I wanted and I could pedal it all day at 2-3 mpg SOG. I did replace the steel cable with braid and used a snubber to minimize the strain on the line. I can easily reach the up/down switch, view the counter and lower the line using the clutch on the DR.
Jason
Nice rig Jason. What size and amperage batt are you using? Those DRs have an auto stop on the retrieve. Does it work on the kayak. I installed one of those on my Tandem Island but the auto stop is not working.
Edit: I just got this answer on the Cannon site: This feature comes on all Cannon electric downriggers and requires the boat to be properly grounded. Still asking about the battery though.
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Wow! That seems like a nice setup. Will that make it harder to get the kayak back upright if you tip it over?
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Nice rig Jason. What size and amperage batt are you using? Those DRs have an auto stop on the retrieve. Does it work on the kayak. I installed one of those on my Tandem Island but the auto stop is not working.
Edit: I just got this answer on the Cannon site: This feature comes on all Cannon electric downriggers and requires the boat to be properly grounded. Still asking about the battery though.
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Hey there - I am using the battery that originally came as part of the Hobie Fish Finder kit (I am using a lithium ion battery for why fish finder now). The battery is a 12V 9AHr/20Hr battery. So far no issues. You are correct, that the auto stop will not work with this set up. It is a bit of a bummer that they don't have a mechanical auto stop. The DR needs to be grounded. Also, it needs the wire cable to be used (I replaced mine with braid). In the end, it is not a huge deal. I simply hold the 'up' button down until I see the counter get to around 15 feet then pay attention to the ball and release the button when the ball hits the surface. I am sure you could make this work with a scotty, but it would take up more real estate and might necessitate moving the DR mount a little more outboard off the edge of the yak with a wider base. I was really looking to keep the DR mounted directly on the rail of the yak. Holding the button down is still wayyyyy easier than hand cranking ;)
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Wow! That seems like a nice setup. Will that make it harder to get the kayak back upright if you tip it over?
Yeah potentially. I have thought about this quite a bit. In addition to the DR, I modified the outrigger mounting system to be able to use the outrigger pontoons for extra stability (essentially just small spacers and longer bolts to lift up the centre bar and clear the extra height created by the DR base). However, I have not yet used the yak with the DR and pontoons together - that is scheduled for next weekend. I will say, the Outback is very stable even in rough chop and swells. I also keep the arm of the DR pretty close to the yak - minimizes lateral torque and it makes it very easy to reach the cannon ball and clip without leaning out over the edge. I also replaced the cable with braid. I started out with 65 lb power pro, but this was too thin (lost a cannon ball from the jerking motion when the DR was stopped - even with a snubber!). I currently have the DR loaded with Scotty 250 lb braid on it, but I think next season I will drop it down to about '125 lb for the extra safety margin. Also, the Cannon DR has a nice clutch system on it. When I lower the cannon ball using the manual brake, I leave the clutch a bit loose. That way if for some reason the ball hangs up, the DR will let it gradually spool out instead of acting like an anchor and pulling on the edge of the yak. I pay close attention to the depth where I am fishing and don't drop the ball too close to the bottom. Usual other safety issues as well - dry suit, waterproof floating marine VHF radio, life jacket, knife close at hand etc. I also keep a Hobie rescue step on board to aid with flipping the yak and reentry if needed. Finally, if I do go over and can't actually manage to get it righted, I can always abort the rigger if it really comes to that. Since it is only held in place by the one thumb screw on the gear track, it slips right out of the gimbal mount when the thumb screw is released. Not ideal, but definitely worth aborting the DR if things got real hairy.
Jason
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This is the Cannon Mini-Mag 2 electric downrigger I added to my 2013 PA-14 back in 2015.
I removed the downrigger off my 18' Jetcraft I sold in 2009 and then purchased my first Hobie kayak, a 2010 Outback.
I also bought the Canon swivel base, that makes it easy on/off/adjust angle and worth every bit of the $65 it cost.
The battery is mounted behind the front storage bin and is an 18 A/H SLA.....it has plenty of capacity to drop and recover numerous times the 4.25# weight. I troll in depths of 25' to 120'.
I also changed out the steel cable to 175# Scotty line......much quieter/hardly any noise.
Since my PA-14 does not have the "drop down skeg", I bought the larger rudder to improve tracking.....especially at deeper depths.....the lager rudder does the trick.
(https://i.imgur.com/aiF1fAJl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Qj2Rgeml.jpg)
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Wow! That seems like a nice setup. Will that make it harder to get the kayak back upright if you tip it over?
Yeah potentially. I have thought about this quite a bit. In addition to the DR, I modified the outrigger mounting system to be able to use the outrigger pontoons for extra stability (essentially just small spacers and longer bolts to lift up the centre bar and clear the extra height created by the DR base). However, I have not yet used the yak with the DR and pontoons together - that is scheduled for next weekend.
Jason
Absolutely, please do come back on here and let us know how your 1st experience goes with the DR jointly used with the outrigger pontoons. I have been considering those pontoons, or even a single. My concern though is that they kind look like they would turn your useable fishing area around the Yak, into a complete Cluster. I cannot imagine how one would land a 5-10 lb fish with those pontoons on either side, etc.
I hope it all goes well.
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Wow! That seems like a nice setup. Will that make it harder to get the kayak back upright if you tip it over?
Yeah potentially. I have thought about this quite a bit. In addition to the DR, I modified the outrigger mounting system to be able to use the outrigger pontoons for extra stability (essentially just small spacers and longer bolts to lift up the centre bar and clear the extra height created by the DR base). However, I have not yet used the yak with the DR and pontoons together - that is scheduled for next weekend.
Jason
Absolutely, please do come back on here and let us know how your 1st experience goes with the DR jointly used with the outrigger pontoons. I have been considering those pontoons, or even a single. My concern though is that they kind look like they would turn your useable fishing area around the Yak, into a complete Cluster. I cannot imagine how one would land a 5-10 lb fish with those pontoons on either side, etc.
I hope it all goes well.
This is exactly what I am worried about...
Jason
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Here's a cheesy video I made of my "electric downrigger" test from this summer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WYlqlk4wic
It works GREAT for deploying and raising a downrigger ball for deep trolling kokanee. I use a 20AH 12v battery as a power source - it weighs about 12lb and goes in the crate behind the seat.
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What video?
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You can't see it? I can.
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If you can't see and click on bb2fish's Youtube video when you view her post, click on "quote," copy the link to the video, and paste the link into your browser.
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bb2fish, what advantages do you find in using a Tanacom 750 power assist reel as a downrigger, rather than some kind of manual downrigger? The reel costs about $500; a Cannon Lake-troll downrigger costs between $100 and $150.
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bb2fish, what advantages do you find in using a Tanacom 750 power assist reel as a downrigger, rather than some kind of manual downrigger? The reel costs about $500; a Cannon Lake-troll downrigger costs between $100 and $150.
I borrowed the Tanacom from a friend to do the test (so the cost was minimal to give this a try on my kayak). I'd suggest seeking out a used power reel if that's the desired course for an electric power assist. You can't compare a Tanacom to the Canon Lake-troll -- one is power, the other manual, so there will most definitely be a cost differential to get into any power assisted downrigger.
The purpose I had for doing a power assisted downrigger was for deep trolling -- like 100-200ft deep (at Lake Chelan), and often from 60-100ft deep (at Odell and Green Peter Reservoir) for kokanee and lake trout. I have since purchased a used Tanacom 750 and will also use it for Halibut fishing 700ft deep (Oregon Offshore). That's a lot of reeling with 5lb of lead !! With that amount of lead, I have blowback at those depths, but I'm ok with blowback in lieu of having a much heavier ball. I still use my "manual downrigger" which is just a conventional line counter reel on the same stiff section of rod shown in the video. But, I thought I'd post an alternative to the various full scale electric downriggers that a couple of the posts in this thread showed. I have a Revo11, and the weight and balance of using the Tanacom electric reel in a crate rod holder is far superior over a full size Scotty or Cannon power downrigger rigidly mounted.
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bb2fish, what advantages do you find in using a Tanacom 750 power assist reel as a downrigger, rather than some kind of manual downrigger? The reel costs about $500; a Cannon Lake-troll downrigger costs between $100 and $150.
I borrowed the Tanacom from a friend to do the test (so the cost was minimal to give this a try on my kayak). I'd suggest seeking out a used power reel if that's the desired course for an electric power assist. You can't compare a Tanacom to the Canon Lake-troll -- one is power, the other manual, so there will most definitely be a cost differential to get into any power assisted downrigger.
The purpose I had for doing a power assisted downrigger was for deep trolling -- like 100-200ft deep (at Lake Chelan), and often from 60-100ft deep (at Odell and Green Peter Reservoir) for kokanee and lake trout. I have since purchased a used Tanacom 750 and will also use it for Halibut fishing 700ft deep (Oregon Offshore). That's a lot of reeling with 5lb of lead !! With that amount of lead, I have blowback at those depths, but I'm ok with blowback in lieu of having a much heavier ball. I still use my "manual downrigger" which is just a conventional line counter reel on the same stiff section of rod shown in the video. But, I thought I'd post an alternative to the various full scale electric downriggers that a couple of the posts in this thread showed. I have a Revo11, and the weight and balance of using the Tanacom electric reel in a crate rod holder is far superior over a full size Scotty or Cannon power downrigger rigidly mounted.
Nice idea, and a lot smaller than the Cannon Mag 5 electric downrigger which Ronand1 is using, and the Cannon Mini-Mag 2 electric downrigger which Dr. Steelhead Catcher is using! Daiwa says the Tanacom 750 has a "momentary winding power of 140 lbs," so the reel shouldn't have any trouble cranking up an eight pound weight. Next, you could buy a second Tanacom 750 for your rod, and figure out how to slave the reels together so they would raise and lower your downrigger weight and your fishing line simultaneously!
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The purpose I had for doing a power assisted downrigger was for deep trolling -- like 100-200ft deep (at Lake Chelan), and often from 60-100ft deep (at Odell and Green Peter Reservoir) for kokanee and lake trout. I have since purchased a used Tanacom 750 and will also use it for Halibut fishing 700ft deep (Oregon Offshore). That's a lot of reeling with 5lb of lead !! With that amount of lead, I have blowback at those depths, but I'm ok with blowback in lieu of having a much heavier ball. I still use my "manual downrigger" which is just a conventional line counter reel on the same stiff section of rod shown in the video. But, I thought I'd post an alternative to the various full scale electric downriggers that a couple of the posts in this thread showed. I have a Revo11, and the weight and balance of using the Tanacom electric reel in a crate rod holder is far superior over a full size Scotty or Cannon power downrigger rigidly mounted.
Great idea Barb. I agree with everything you said.
Here is my take on the concept. Keep in mind I fish >100ft deep 95% of the time. A four pound ball on 80lb spectra hits the sweet spot for me in terms of blowback.
(http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/gallery/316-081018233641.jpeg)
I tried to minimize the package as far as I could and still fish effectively. I wanted it to be ultra portable, lightweight, and quick to mount/unmount.
All together my downrigger is 20" long and weighs 2lb. Total cost was under $175, line included. For my style of kayak fishing I think it compares favorably to the electric models by scotty and cannon. At the push of a button this rig will zip 4lbs up 100ft in under 30 seconds and auto stop at the surface with the line clip in reach. I can get a full day of fishing out of a 5ah 3lb SLA.
Pete was asking about advantages over a manual. In 2014 I was using a manual downrigger made out of the bottom section of an old salmon rod and a cheap okuma line counter reel. I lost a few chinook and a nice bull trout because I couldn't retrieve the ball fast enough while playing the fish and they tangled around the downrigger line. The fishing was great that year and between drive bys and hook ups I was wasting a lot of time pulling the ball back to the surface to reset. I hit ebay and found the smallest electric I could and scored a gem. Mounted it up in the configuration you see above and there was no turning back. The portability and versatility are excellent. I love my mini rigger! ;D
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The size, weight, and cost of motorboat-sized electric downriggers and their batteries have discouraged me from mounting a standard electric downrigger on my kayak, but bb2fish and snowpro are making me think I should assemble an electric downrigger system which uses an electric reel. When you take the weight of the battery into account, the total weight of such a system would be similar to the total weight of a manual downrigger, but most of the weight of the electric reel system would be sitting on the bottom of my kayak, which would keep the center of gravity of my kayak lower than when using my manual downrigger. I frequently troll down to around 200 feet, and it would be nice to be able to retrieve my downrigger weight with the push of a button, particularly when I get a strike and am playing in a fish. But I wonder about the durability of the electronics, bearings and other parts of an electric reel. It would suck to invest hundreds of dollars in an electric reel, and have it blow up after only a year or so of downrigger fishing.
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VERY NICE, SnoPro. Great solution.
Where do you mount your scotty base? I have a 241 base in my map pocket - this style mount would be ideal for getting the DR in front of me but still out of the way from my rods.
Reliability and Maintainability of the Daiwa Tanacom 750 is excellent. Replacement parts are available in the USA. Sure if a motor or control board fails it will be expensive to repair (but that's true of any downrigger or power equipment). The Tanacoms are easy to take apart and perform maintenance or cleaning/service, and easy to reassemble too >:D . As with anything surrounding saltwater, fishing or just powered devices in general - there could be failures. In my opinion, the cost was worth the convenience and comfort to have a power assisted downrigger. It's dual purpose for me to use the power reel for Halibut fishing too (so I chose a reel with more line capacity and drag).
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That is a very elegant solution. I agree that the Cannon (or Scotty etc) takes up more space and is certainly heavier than the electric reel (although to be honest, the smaller model with braid instead of cable is easily manageable) and requires a fabricated base mount to be anchored properly. However, once it is in position it does not interfere with seating or for paddling, since it is just behind the side of the seat and the boom can easily be pivoted out to the side if needed. Also, there is comfort in knowing that the base is solidly mounted to the rail of my yak, using the Hobie molded gimbal rod holder tube to take most of the force and the T-nut to anchor it down. Finally, the shorter boom of the Cannon DR (2 feet) and the ease of rotating it to a position where the arm is close to the kayak keeps the lateral torque minimized but still allows me to reach out to access the cannon ball without moving or needing to lean over the edge.
SnoPro/PM Pete - How do you find the lateral torque on the yak with the tip of the DR rod that far out? Also, does it seem to put any significant stress on the scotty gimbal base? Is it easy to rotate around or does that move the cannon ball too far away to easily reach?
Cool ideas...keep em coming. Regardless which solution fits your needs, I would certainly suggest going with electric over manual if you plan to be at any significant depth. Worse case scenario, you can always hand crank up the ball if you have a mechanical/electrical failure or dead battery.
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SnoPro/PM Pete - How do you find the lateral torque on the yak with the tip of the DR rod that far out? Also, does it seem to put any significant stress on the scotty gimbal base? Is it easy to rotate around or does that move the cannon ball too far away to easily reach?
I shortened the boom of my Cannon Lake-Troll manual downrigger so the pulley is only about half an inch from the body of the downrigger, and I oriented the downrigger so its cable hangs only about an inch from the side of my kayak. This minimizes the stress which the downrigger puts on its base, and also minimizes the amount that the drag from the downrigger's weight and cable affects the tracking of my Revolution. Even with an eight pound weight, the drag doesn't have any noticeable effect on the tracking of my Revolution, but this may in part be because I replaced the kayak's standard rudder with a sailing rudder.
I recommend that you position your downrigger where you can grab its weight and clip into its release while sitting completely centered and balanced in your kayak's seat. Don't locate it where you have to lean way out over the side of your kayak to grab the weight and clip into the release, as that could cause problems if the waves get rowdy. In addition, when you are deciding where to locate and orient a downrigger, I suggest that you put on a bunch of thick clothing and a PFD, and be sure that you can reach your downrigger weight and clip your fishing line easily with all that gear on. If you locate your downrigger while sitting in your garage and wearing a T-shirt, you may discover that a lot of clothing, a dry suit, and a PFD may make it a lot harder to reach the weight and release.
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Agreed, nice looking DR, look forward to an action photo, or seat in place, etc. thx for sharing.
Sorry for the late reply, better late than never. In the first photo, I am pedding along vertical jigging while the rod to the right is deployed on the downrigger.
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In the second photo, you can see that I am winding up the down rigger while a fish is hooked up on the rod.