NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => For Safety's Sake => Topic started by: rogerdodger on June 26, 2019, 06:48:59 PM
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this is the approach that I have taken to secure my drive nuts....I applied medium strength 'blue' loctite to the exposed threads and then tightened a regular SS nut up against the Hobie nylock nut. I checked them after my recent bottom fishing trip (4 hours at the pedals) and no change, all good.
(https://i.imgur.com/8T1FUFe.jpg)
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I'm curious how easy it will be to remove the Loc-Tited nut without damaging the plastic drive slot.
Can you give it a few weeks and break one loose as an experiment?
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I'm curious how easy it will be to remove the Loc-Tited nut without damaging the plastic drive slot.
Can you give it a few weeks and break one loose as an experiment?
for sure, my plan is to hold the nylock nut in place with a 7/16 spanner and then loosen the normal nut (that has loctite under it), which should keep stress on the plastic drive slot to a minimum...
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I'm curious how easy it will be to remove the Loc-Tited nut without damaging the plastic drive slot.
Can you give it a few weeks and break one loose as an experiment?
for sure, my plan is to hold the nylock nut in place with a 7/16 spanner and then loosen the normal nut (that has loctite under it), which should keep stress on the plastic drive slot to a minimum...
I would think that would just turn the cable inside the Nylock, and put the same pressures on plastic cable slot?
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I'm curious how easy it will be to remove the Loc-Tited nut without damaging the plastic drive slot.
Can you give it a few weeks and break one loose as an experiment?
for sure, my plan is to hold the nylock nut in place with a 7/16 spanner and then loosen the normal nut (that has loctite under it), which should keep stress on the plastic drive slot to a minimum...
I would think that would just turn the cable inside the Nylock, and put the same pressures on plastic cable slot?
I am thinking that first, it will break the nuts loose from each other while putting minimal stress on the plastic slot (remembering that I tightened the nuts together using 2 wrenches). If that nut separation is due to the new nut loosening, then done deal, the loctite bond is broken. If it occurs due to the cable end turning in the nylock, then I will still need to break the loctite bond. At this point, holding the nylock firm against the plastic will add its remaining resistance to the cable end turning to the resistance from the plastic slot.
I sure wouldn't do this with the red 'high strength' loctite.... ;D
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I've had my '16 Outback about 15 months now (bought new) and haven't touched the nylocs. I give the cables a tug every now and then to see if they've loosened up and they don't seem to have done so. What symptoms do you start seeing/hearing when they are loosening up?
Thanks,
Kevin
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I'm curious how easy it will be to remove the Loc-Tited nut without damaging the plastic drive slot.
Can you give it a few weeks and break one loose as an experiment?
for sure, my plan is to hold the nylock nut in place with a 7/16 spanner and then loosen the normal nut (that has loctite under it), which should keep stress on the plastic drive slot to a minimum...
I would think that would just turn the cable inside the Nylock, and put the same pressures on plastic cable slot?
I am thinking that first, it will break the nuts loose from each other while putting minimal stress on the plastic slot (remembering that I tightened the nuts together using 2 wrenches). If that nut separation is due to the new nut loosening, then done deal, the loctite bond is broken. If it occurs due to the cable end turning in the nylock, then I will still need to break the loctite bond. At this point, holding the nylock firm against the plastic will add its remaining resistance to the cable end turning to the resistance from the plastic slot.
I sure wouldn't do this with the red 'high strength' loctite.... ;D
I'm am interested in the final outcome either way. Right now you are taking one for the team in the sake of research. :occasion14:
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I've had my '16 Outback about 15 months now (bought new) and haven't touched the nylocs. I give the cables a tug every now and then to see if they've loosened up and they don't seem to have done so. What symptoms do you start seeing/hearing when they are loosening up?
Thanks,
Kevin
It's usually after you dink with them. Like removing them to service something, and then reuse the same Nyloc nut. As Roger mentioned previously, the cables are flat on two sides to aid in holding them from turning in the slot in the plastic drive. However, these flat sides are really sharp and can destroy the nylon insert in the Nyloc if taken on and off. Good to keep a few new 1/4-20 Stainless Nylocs on hand and replace with new after a servicing.
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I've had my '16 Outback about 15 months now (bought new) and haven't touched the nylocs. I give the cables a tug every now and then to see if they've loosened up and they don't seem to have done so. What symptoms do you start seeing/hearing when they are loosening up?
Thanks,
Kevin
It's usually after you dink with them. Like removing them to service something, and then reuse the same Nyloc nut. As Roger mentioned previously, the cables are flat on two sides to aid in holding them from turning in the slot in the plastic drive. However, these flat sides are really sharp and can destroy the nylon insert in the Nyloc if taken on and off. Good to keep a few new 1/4-20 Stainless Nylocs on hand and replace with new after a servicing.
exactly, the nut that I had almost fall off on CoosBay (back in May), all I had done before that trip is tighten a few of the nuts a half turn or so as part of normal break-in tightening (I've got about 20 outings on the drive). And after that trip, 5 were just fine, one had backed out far enough that I could remove it with my fingers. quick calculation I did, based on how many turns it made during 6 hours on the water, I had maybe 30 minutes left before it fell off (less if the loosened cable jumped off the pulley). that half turn tighten must have shaved off just enough of the nylon for it to lose it's locking ability. not acceptable on a mission critical item.
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Thanks, that would explain it!
Kevin
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I wonder if there is any merit in knocking the sharp edge off the cable flats with a file or emery cloth, and then install new nuts to see if this will reduce the damage they cause to the nylon in the Nyloc?
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Maybe I’m seeing it wrong but isn’t the end of the bolt shaft where the cable crimped into a hexagon shape? A “line” wrench if it will fit but even a good pair of vice grip?
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Maybe I’m seeing it wrong but isn’t the end of the bolt shaft where the cable crimped into a hexagon shape? A “line” wrench if it will fit but even a good pair of vice grip?
yes, that is "plan B". if it feels like it is taking too much torque to break that loctite nut loose, the last arrow in my quiver is to grab that cable end with a needle nose vicegrip....but I don't think it will get to that. ;D
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Great thread and got me asking a question or two re: Hobies
What do people have in the Yak for spare parts, tools, goop, etc. ?
Is there a good overview, video, manual of the proper care and feeding of the mirage drive?
In following this it is clear I dont have the stuff if something repairable goes wrong on the water and that I need to take better care of the drive.
I just picked up 6 Nuylocs, 12 1/4 20 SS nuts and 2 7/16 wrenches as a start
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what this thread needs is a Beavis and Butthead GIF....
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what this thread needs is a Beavis and Butthead GIF....
[Heh,heh,heh] You said, "NUTS" [/Heh,heh,heh]
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Couldn’t resist! Thanks snopro
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excellent.
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Great thread and got me asking a question or two re: Hobies
What do people have in the Yak for spare parts, tools, goop, etc. ?
Is there a good overview, video, manual of the proper care and feeding of the mirage drive?
In following this it is clear I dont have the stuff if something repairable goes wrong on the water and that I need to take better care of the drive.
I just picked up 6 Nuylocs, 12 1/4 20 SS nuts and 2 7/16 wrenches as a start
There are few places where a 3 mm hex (Allen) wrench comes to play, so may want to have that in your mini tool box as well.
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A little bit more information about nylock nuts and threadlocking compound. (We had an incident at work where a machine shipped to a customer had several loose fasteners upon arrival, and I was tasked with doing some research, along with a few of our senior design engineers.)
1) Nylock nuts are by design a one-use fastener. Removal and re-use chews up the insert to a point where it becomes ineffective.
2) Nylock nuts are not particularly effective in high vibration situations. I wouldn't call a pedal drive a high vibration application, but it is not a stationary application, either. I have had a nylock fall off my drive in use, and I have to assume motion had a lot to do with that, as well as it being removed and re-used.
3) Loctite (who makes dozens of compounds other than threadlockers) makes 4 types of color-coded threadlocking compounds.
a) purple - low strength, designed for fasteners under 1/4" (53 in/lbs break torque)
b) blue - medium strength, designed for fasteners 1/4" to 3/4" (230 in/lbs break torque)
c) red - designed to be permanent, and requiring the application of heat to remove (290 in/lb break torque)
d) green - wicking, designed to be used on fasteners in place (260 in/lb break torque)
* break torque is the momentary force required to break the bond - the prevail torque to keep the fastener moving is considerable less, except in the case of the red Loctite.
4) Loctite threadlocker sets up as a plastic in the absence of oxygen, and uses ions from active metals to cure. This means that is stays liquid until it gets into the relatively airless spaces between the internal and external threads, and "takes" free ions from the surrounding metal. Stainless steel is a passive metal, meaning it doesn't have a lot of free ions to give. Therefore, Loctite recommends using a primer on stainless steel fasteners with stainless bolts, with the proviso that they have developed some new compounds that can be used on SS without a primer. In blue, that is Loctite 243, and red it is 263. (The old standbys were 242 in blue and 262 in red.) Purple (222) and green (290) do not come in primerless variants.
5) LOCTITE THREADLOCKER DAMAGES MANY PLASTICS! Keep it off the plastic parts of your drives. Fortunately, Loctite only sets up in between the threads, so there is no need to slather it on. Apply a drop or two only in the area that the fastener will be tight. Loctite will not work in conjunction with nylock fasteners because of the plastic insert.
6) Loctite is also a single use product. If you move the nut, the plastic that set up in the threads is destroyed and threadlocker will need to be re-applied.
I hope some of you find this useful. I intend on replacing all the nylock nuts in my drives with standard SS nuts and using Loctite 243. The blue stick pictured before (248) would also work well, but it should be used with Loctite primer SF 7088, SF 7469, or SF 7471. (The only difference between those that I could find is that SF 7469 can be used in temps below 40°F.)
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A little bit more information about nylock nuts and threadlocking compound. (We had an incident at work where a machine shipped to a customer had several loose fasteners upon arrival, and I was tasked with doing some research, along with a few of our senior design engineers.)
1) Nylock nuts are by design a one-use fastener. Removal and re-use chews up the insert to a point where it becomes ineffective.
2) Nylock nuts are not particularly effective in high vibration situations. I wouldn't call a pedal drive a high vibration application, but it is not a stationary application, either. I have had a nylock fall off my drive in use, and I have to assume motion had a lot to do with that, as well as it being removed and re-used.
3) Loctite (who makes dozens of compounds other than threadlockers) makes 4 types of color-coded threadlocking compounds.
a) purple - low strength, designed for fasteners under 1/4" (53 in/lbs break torque)
b) blue - medium strength, designed for fasteners 1/4" to 3/4" (230 in/lbs break torque)
c) red - designed to be permanent, and requiring the application of heat to remove (290 in/lb break torque)
d) green - wicking, designed to be used on fasteners in place (260 in/lb break torque)
* break torque is the momentary force required to break the bond - the prevail torque to keep the fastener moving is considerable less, except in the case of the red Loctite.
4) Loctite threadlocker sets up as a plastic in the absence of oxygen, and uses ions from active metals to cure. This means that is stays liquid until it gets into the relatively airless spaces between the internal and external threads, and "takes" free ions from the surrounding metal. Stainless steel is a passive metal, meaning it doesn't have a lot of free ions to give. Therefore, Loctite recommends using a primer on stainless steel fasteners with stainless bolts, with the proviso that they have developed some new compounds that can be used on SS without a primer. In blue, that is Loctite 243, and red it is 263. (The old standbys were 242 in blue and 262 in red.) Purple (222) and green (290) do not come in primerless variants.
5) LOCTITE THREADLOCKER DAMAGES MANY PLASTICS! Keep it off the plastic parts of your drives. Fortunately, Loctite only sets up in between the threads, so there is no need to slather it on. Apply a drop or two only in the area that the fastener will be tight. Loctite will not work in conjunction with nylock fasteners because of the plastic insert.
6) Loctite is also a single use product. If you move the nut, the plastic that set up in the threads is destroyed and threadlocker will need to be re-applied.
I hope some of you find this useful. I intend on replacing all the nylock nuts in my drives with standard SS nuts and using Loctite 243. The blue stick pictured before (248) would also work well, but it should be used with Loctite primer SF 7088, SF 7469, or SF 7471. (The only difference between those that I could find is that SF 7469 can be used in temps below 40°F.)
excellent information!
I did my loosening test today and the 'blue' loctite bond breaks free easily, video of that in the link below. I'm pleased with the combination of tightening the nuts together and adding a drop of 'blue' loctite, plus always using new nyloc nuts and checking all the drive nuts before launch. Better yet would be to chase the threads on those cable ends with a 1/4-20 die to reduce the chance of them cutting the nyloc material.
YouTube video: Hobie MD180 'locking' drive nut
Link: youtu.be/rn6cD0QNi24
"It's all fun and games until someone loses a nut"