NorthWest Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing => Let's Talk Kayak Fishing => Topic started by: Lutefisk on February 27, 2019, 07:43:07 PM
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I have had some previously frozen rockfish/lingcod fillets lack taste and texture. Sometime the texture is so soft and mushy that I don't even want to eat the cooked product....
When I fillet fish, I try my best to keep a super clean fillet board. Wipe down blood/guts with towels. Keep the fillets as dry and clean as possible and avoid rinsing them at all. But usually at the port-side cleaning stations, mess is inevitable and I end up rinsing my fillets, then put them in bags on ice for the ride home, then vacuum seal. I try to keep any rinse to a minimum to keep the flavor in the fish. Comparatively no-one would ever rinse a red-meat steak in water before cooking, thats just crazy, same with rinsing fish fillets.
But I was reading around other fishing forums and alot of people say that they rinse fillets in saltwater that they bring back in buckets. Obviously thats not going to happen when kayak fishing. So does anyone mix up a saltwater brine using freshwater/kosher salt and then rinse/soak fillets before freezing? Notice any difference in taste/texture?
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I was up in Alaska helping build a lodge a few years ago. The owner said he quit using a vacuum packer and showed us his technique, which is totally doable if you grab water from a larger bay, or the beach. Depoe bay would be questionable since it is so small and due to the fuel I see in the water sometimes. After fishing, we had three buckets of salt water. We cleaned the fish and tossed the fillets in the first bucket. After all were cleaned, they were rinsed in the second bucket. The fillets were put into ziplock bags then, with the bag still opened, dipped and filled with the clean salt water from bucket 3. The bags were zipped until almost closed. Then all air was squeezed out along with most of the water and the bag was fully sealed. The fish were frozen in this small amount of seawater in just the ziplock bag. He said he as eaten halibut that was three seasons old and could not tell when using this method. The oldest I had was a year and a half old package that got lost in my freezer. It was delicious. I think you could get away with one small bucket brought to the cleaning station and rinse the fish with the hose just to get the nasties off quick. Then do the salt water rinse before bagging.
That being said, the method of choice by me is to clean and rinse the fillets at the cleaning station, bring them home, candle for worms, wrap in plastic wrap, then vacuum pack. I have a good chamber vacuum and when done this way I rarely get freezer burn. I am still eating salmon from August of 2017. It still tastes great. If you think you will eat a whole fish per meal (ie rockfish), gut them, vacuum pack, and freeze them whole. A coworker gave me his salmon to smoke for him recently. He ad a few vacuum packed fillets from this past September and a whole coho vacuum packed whole - as I described - from September 2017. The vacuum packer was a standard Foodsaver, and those fillets were starting to get freezer burn. His whole coho that was a year older looked and smelled like it was caught within the past month. It was beautiful.
Also, I have noticed rockfish do not keep as well as Lingcod or Cabezon. I quit keeping them unless I was desperate for meat until I discovered this enchilada recipe. It works great with rockfish and lings. It is the last page of the booklet. http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.clients/cca/ckeditor_assets/attachments/1060/insert_2017_web2.pdf?1509571897
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I keep my fillets as dry as possible. If they need a rinse, I'll do a quick one once I'm ready to cook them. I'll scrape them with the knife before vacuum sealing them if they've got a little stuff on them. Salt water freezing like Craig mentioned sounds like it would work well, but only salt water, not fresh.
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Cleaning fish can be a messy process, what with the guts, slime, scales, and other assorted goobers which it produces. I rinse my fillets and cutting board several times during the process, for example, once after cutting the fillets off the backbone, and again after removing the ribs, skin, and pin or Y bones, so the processed fillets are as clean as possible before I vacuum pack them. Any water remaining on the surface of the fillets when I vacuum pack them creates a thin layer of ice on the frozen fillets, and helps protect the fillets against freezer burn. See the examples of frozen fish fillets shown below. The fillets look beautiful when I peel off the plastic, and I have found that the quality of the fillets is consistently high.
For those who have been disappointed by the quality of their frozen fish, how are you caring for them between the time that you catch them, and the time that you process them? Are you bleeding and/or gutting them and putting them on ice in a cooler within a couple of minutes? Or are you throwing them in the back of your kayak on a stringer to heat up in the sun?
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There are some good threads from history on here regarding this same topic if you can find them.
I do not follow "best practices" with regard to rinsing fillets, so I'll keep out of that discussion, but here are some related tips:
- If your meat is mushy later make sure that you are bleeding your fish and keeping them as cool as possible until you're back at your vehicle, at which point they should be put on ice immediately (fish or fillets). I strongly prefer to pack fish with actual ice, not just cold packs.
- If your fillets are thawed or more than 24 hours old, soak in milk with a few squirts of lemon juice for a while (10 minutes to overnight). I have found this not only improves the smell but also the flavor and texture.
- I realize you're not talking about it being mushy after cooking, but I've found with the more delicate white meat ocean fish (striped perch and greenling in my case) you really want to cook them fast and get them off the heat.
Like Pete said, in my experience the biggest factor is how the fish is cared for from the time it is harvested until the time it is on ice.
As far as long-term storage, I have had the best results with freezing fillets submerged in water. I just fried up rockfish from the back of my freezer from late 2016 and it was great. It does take more room, though. I don't freeze salmon because I've never caught enough to need to. ;D
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No fresh water touches my ocean filets until just before cooking.
My practice that seems to work really good for us and even for year old frozen rockfish.
I would agree that rockfish won't last as long as Ling or Cab.
Here is my goto:
*Bleed the fish thoroughly at the time of capture and when they are the most active. I reach under the gill plates with long handle pliers and twist out the gills. Blood rushes out nicely, and their heart is still pumping from the action of the fight. Longer fish I try to hang on to the tail and put the head in the water to aid in a gravity drain approach.
*Then the fish goes directly in the kill bag that is loaded with ice (the ice is also in a bag to avoid fresh water contamination).
*Fish stays in the bag on ice and out of the sun until I get to my portable cleaning station/table.
(I haven't used a public cleaning station in years for several reasons.)
*If I am at Depoe I collect about 3 gallons in a dry bag somewhere well outside the hole and bring it back to the launch area in my lap. The dry bag gets I use this to rinse filets off as I process my catch.
*If I am at a beach launch, I try to wade back out into the surf to collect my water.
*If I don't have the salt water, I don't rinse until cooking and I try to not use tap water, rather the filtered water from my fridge or jugged drinking water.
*Filet quickly to avoid having filets sit out and get warm. Using a very sharp knife will aid in this process.
*Candle or headlamp the filets to remove worms or random scale.
*Before I seal my filets in the vacuum bags, I dab them dry with a Dollar Tree shamwow knockoff towel. These can take several filets before ringing them out and continuing.
*I vac seal at camp or my truck if I am not going straight home.
*Packages go on ice until they get to the freezer at home. Or my camper freezer immediately.
*Upon pulling from the freezer, I snip the corner of the bag so the meat does not thaw under vacuum, which can draw the moisture out of the meat.
What things I have learned by trial an error at what deteriorates ocean caught fish filet quality:
*Not bled promptly or bled thoroughly.
*Not put on ice and out of the sun.
*Rinsed with a municipal water supply that most likely contains chlorine.
*Lollygagging while filleting fish, or dragging out the process using a dull knife.
*Thawing under vacuum.
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What things I have learned by trial an error at what deteriorates ocean caught fish filet quality:
*Not bled promptly or bled thoroughly.
*Not put on ice and out of the sun.
*Rinsed with a municipal water supply that most likely contains chlorine.
*Lollygagging while filleting fish, or dragging out the process using a dull knife.
*Thawing under vacuum.
That right there is the ballgame. Rinsing with freshwater doesn't matter much. You're putting it on ice which is basically the same thing just a little colder.
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What things I have learned by trial an error at what deteriorates ocean caught fish filet quality:
*Not bled promptly or bled thoroughly.
*Not put on ice and out of the sun.
*Rinsed with a municipal water supply that most likely contains chlorine.
*Lollygagging while filleting fish, or dragging out the process using a dull knife.
*Thawing under vacuum.
That right there is the ballgame. Rinsing with freshwater doesn't matter much. You're putting it on ice which is basically the same thing just a little colder.
Two things to consider though.
*The fish is on the ice, but the skin is the barrier between any freshwater and actual meat fillet. I don't know if this actually changes anything or not, as I have no idea what water the absorption rate that a dead fish has through its skin.
*In my case, as I mentioned earlier, I have my ice inside of a modified dry bag and this inside of my kill bag, and the fish sit on the dry bag so the actual fish isn't touching any freshwater at all. 8)
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but I've found with the more delicate white meat ocean fish (striped perch and greenling in my case) you really want to cook them fast and get them off the heat.
I just cooked up my first striped perch and it was SO MUSHY. So that makes me feel better that you have also noticed the same issue with striped perch. And that maybe it was not my fillet prep. that caused that bad texture.
As for my last batch of rockfish that was soft and mushy, probably because I was lollygagging at the cleaning station. Too many beers after GS12.
Also I like that idea of using a dry bag to collect saltwater on the way in.
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but I've found with the more delicate white meat ocean fish (striped perch and greenling in my case) you really want to cook them fast and get them off the heat.
I just cooked up my first striped perch and it was SO MUSHY. So that makes me feel better that you have also noticed the same issue with striped perch. And that maybe it was not my fillet prep. that caused that bad texture.
As for my last batch of rockfish that was soft and mushy, probably because I was lollygagging at the cleaning station. Too many beers after GS12.
Also I like that idea of using a dry bag to collect saltwater on the way in.
Striped perch can be REALLY delicate meat to cook. Same with small flounder.
Be aware that having around 3 gallons of water in a bag in your lap is also having 25 extra pounds of sloshy top heaviness to deal with.
I pick my battles as necessary on sloppy days. So be smart about it.
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but I've found with the more delicate white meat ocean fish (striped perch and greenling in my case) you really want to cook them fast and get them off the heat.
I just cooked up my first striped perch and it was SO MUSHY.
I thought you knew what you were getting yourself into when I saw those striped perch on your game clip :D. I'm personally not a fan of them for the table, or greenling. But they make for good photos.
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but I've found with the more delicate white meat ocean fish (striped perch and greenling in my case) you really want to cook them fast and get them off the heat.
I just cooked up my first striped perch and it was SO MUSHY.
I thought you knew what you were getting yourself into when I saw those striped perch on your game clip :D. I'm personally not a fan of them for the table, or greenling. But they make for good photos.
Greenling are ok if you cook them super fast in very hot oil, kind of like red tail perch. Striped perch otoh are not worth the trouble. I've thought about making ceviche with them to see if that helped the texture problem.
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
Did you wait around all morning to post at exactly 5:55:55, or was that a happy accident? :confused2: :icon_salut:
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I feel like whenever I discuss greenling and perch as food with people they kind of go away from the conversation believing I must have terribly low standards. Perhaps that's true. But my experiences echo INSAYN's - cared for and cooked according to the needs of the species, I've had some great meals out of all of those. He's right about small flounder too - very easy to overcook but very good when you don't.
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
But if you had the choice of swapping out that perch fillet with a petrale sole, or a lingcod, or a rockfish, or a salmon, or a halibut, would you still stick with the perch?
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
But if you had the choice of swapping out that perch fillet with a petrale sole, or a lingcod, or a rockfish, or a salmon, or a halibut, would you still stick with the perch?
(Sorry for the unintentional edit above - it's back to original now.)
Well of course not but I'm not always fishing where I can catch those other species.
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Ok, I am learning a lot from this. Say you wanted to try the salt water freezing in ziplocks, but you failed to bring home ocean water. What ratio of kosher salt to water would you mix?
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
Did you wait around all morning to post at exactly 5:55:55, or was that a happy accident? :confused2: :icon_salut:
Did not plan that at all. Didn't even notice it until you said something. :sign10:
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I found that perch with a sprinkle of Tequila Lime powder pan fried quick and slapped into a sammich with some slaw is really good.
But if you had the choice of swapping out that perch fillet with a petrale sole, or a lingcod, or a rockfish, or a salmon, or a halibut, would you still stick with the perch?
Even though I like extremely fresh donuts from a really good bakery, I'll eat a cheap day old donut that was mass produced just easily. 8)
To me it's not really a choice of "this instead of that", it's more like a choice of "this and/or that".
Sometimes a guy targets a different fish for different reasons. I like perch so on occasion I fish for them.
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I don't know if this would help cure mushy, but when I worked in Alaska at a freezer plant we would flash freeze the fish whole, then dip them quickly in very cold water with a little bit of corn syrup in it. This 'coating' quickly froze and provided a barrier, primarily against freezer burn, according to QC. The corn syrup is the secret and prevents the ice from cracking and flaking off.
You could try wrapping your filets in cling wrap to prevent dehydration and freeze over night, then dip and vacuum seal. Be interesting to know if this helps.
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Another thing to be aware of is that it's very important you freeze your fillets as quickly as possible, i.e. 'flash freeze'. The reason why anything turns soft after being frozen is because of cellular breakdown. This happens because when water freezes slowly it forms long crystals that rupture the cell wall. However, the faster something is frozen, the less crystal grown.
I vacuum seal my fillets and lay them out single layer wherever I can in the freezer. Next morning I box them up. Ideally you would lay them out on an empty rack so air circulates all around but I usually don't have that kind of room. If you just box them up and put them in the freezer, the fillets in the center at least might take 48 hrs to freeze, causing a lot of cell damage.
From Wiki we have:
Flash freezing is used in the food industry to quickly freeze perishable food items (see frozen food). In this case, food items are subjected to temperatures well below water's melting/freezing point.[clarification needed] Thus, smaller ice crystals are formed, causing less damage to cell membranes
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Again, I'm not suggesting I follow best practices, but I am suggesting that I end up with great food.
Here's lingcod fish'n'chips from the weekend. This was made with 2016 lingcod I found in the back of the freezer. I do rinse my fillets with fresh water, and I freeze them in fresh water. The fish was easily better than any restaurant fish'n'chips I've had outside of Alaska.
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OMG Captain Redbeard, that looks so good, I came back to the post and it looks even better the second time. I had to login just to give kudos. Nicely done!
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OMG Captain Redbeard, that looks so good, I came back to the post and it looks even better the second time. I had to login just to give kudos. Nicely done!
Thanks! All credit should really go to my wonderful wife who not only makes great food but also fillets better than me. I will pass along the nice comment to her.
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Here's a good article speaking to the issue & supporting most of what's been said already.
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/from-the-brine-to-the-broiler-the-right-way-to-handle-fish
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Here's a good article speaking to the issue & supporting most of what's been said already.
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/from-the-brine-to-the-broiler-the-right-way-to-handle-fish
Wow, that's a great article. This section stood out to me:
...cutting live or just-dead fish can destroy the quality of the resulting fillets. Heed the former advice about bleeding and chilling, but also be sure to let fish rest for at least an hour post-mortem before they see the knife. Some species’ fillets will literally disintegrate in the pan if you fail to let flesh rest before cutting.
This might be why some of my fish seems to turn out firmer than other folks I talk to; I usually bleed fish immediately and then they go in the cooler whole on ice when I get back to the car where they stay until I fillet them, which is often the next day.
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Here's a good article speaking to the issue & supporting most of what's been said already.
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/from-the-brine-to-the-broiler-the-right-way-to-handle-fish
Wow, that's a great article. This section stood out to me:
...cutting live or just-dead fish can destroy the quality of the resulting fillets. Heed the former advice about bleeding and chilling, but also be sure to let fish rest for at least an hour post-mortem before they see the knife. Some species’ fillets will literally disintegrate in the pan if you fail to let flesh rest before cutting.
This might be why some of my fish seems to turn out firmer than other folks I talk to; I usually bleed fish immediately and then they go in the cooler whole on ice when I get back to the car where they stay until I fillet them, which is often the next day.
To that I would add not to filet a fish in rigor. Either do it before rigor sets or wait for it to pass. You can delay onset of rigor with ike jimi by several hours to a couple days depending on technique and fish species.
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Here's a good article speaking to the issue & supporting most of what's been said already.
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/from-the-brine-to-the-broiler-the-right-way-to-handle-fish
Wow, that's a great article. This section stood out to me:
...cutting live or just-dead fish can destroy the quality of the resulting fillets. Heed the former advice about bleeding and chilling, but also be sure to let fish rest for at least an hour post-mortem before they see the knife. Some species’ fillets will literally disintegrate in the pan if you fail to let flesh rest before cutting.
This might be why some of my fish seems to turn out firmer than other folks I talk to; I usually bleed fish immediately and then they go in the cooler whole on ice when I get back to the car where they stay until I fillet them, which is often the next day.
To that I would add not to filet a fish in rigor. Either do it before rigor sets or wait for it to pass. You can delay onset of rigor with ike jimi by several hours to a couple days depending on technique and fish species.
Can I ask why?
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Here's a good article speaking to the issue & supporting most of what's been said already.
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/from-the-brine-to-the-broiler-the-right-way-to-handle-fish
Wow, that's a great article. This section stood out to me:
...cutting live or just-dead fish can destroy the quality of the resulting fillets. Heed the former advice about bleeding and chilling, but also be sure to let fish rest for at least an hour post-mortem before they see the knife. Some species’ fillets will literally disintegrate in the pan if you fail to let flesh rest before cutting.
This might be why some of my fish seems to turn out firmer than other folks I talk to; I usually bleed fish immediately and then they go in the cooler whole on ice when I get back to the car where they stay until I fillet them, which is often the next day.
To that I would add not to filet a fish in rigor. Either do it before rigor sets or wait for it to pass. You can delay onset of rigor with ike jimi by several hours to a couple days depending on technique and fish species.
Can I ask why?
They are harder to filet, and easy to damage when you have to force them to straighten out. Rockfish especially will separate which causes them to fall apart when cooked. They will also firm up some if you allow rigor to pass.
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Great info, thanks!
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...cutting live or just-dead fish can destroy the quality of the resulting fillets. Heed the former advice about bleeding and chilling, but also be sure to let fish rest for at least an hour post-mortem before they see the knife. Some species’ fillets will literally disintegrate in the pan if you fail to let flesh rest before cutting.
This might be why some of my fish seems to turn out firmer than other folks I talk to; I usually bleed fish immediately and then they go in the cooler whole on ice when I get back to the car where they stay until I fillet them, which is often the next day.
I remember my first-hand experience with filleting really fresh fish. About 10-12 years ago, I filleted some freshly caught trout only a few minutes after bonking+bleeding. As soon as the fillets came off the spine, you could see the muscle tissue retracting and the fillets literally shrunk in size. Upon cooking, I noticed a significant difference in the texture: chewy, almost spongey. Definitely not appetizing!
Nowadays, I like to wait a while before I fillet my fish to let the muscle tissue "relax".
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I have also found that fileting fish after rigor has passed and while still very cold, that the meat is nice and firm allowing the knife to just glide through the flesh resulting in a very clean smooth fillet that holds its consistency all the way to the table (frozen or not).
One fish that is inherently difficult to fillet is the Cabezon, and on top of that, it seems to never go into rigor.
I will keep my Cabs on ice the longest and fillet them last if at all possible just to give it more time to rest and firm up.
If I am doing a day trip to Depoe Bay/PC, I will wait until I am back home and everything cleaned and put away with one beer down before I start the filleting process. This is a minimum of 3-4 hours.
If I am camping at the coast, I try to lollygag by getting some beer and food in me, gear cleaned and sorted well before I start the fillet process. I also find it helpful to keep the fillet table out of the sun for both myself and the fillet quality.
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I don't like to fillet cabezon. It takes me too long, I waste meat & (if not cooked fresh) I think they taste better frozen whole in brine or clean seawater & bbq'd or baked whole. If it's +20", I'll curl it in a 2.5 gallon ziplock. If I had room in the freezer, I'd keep all my rockfish, greenling & perch that way.
(http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/gallery/medium_412-140816114552-52711482.jpeg) (http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=5272)
(http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/gallery/medium_412_06_05_09_10_33_48_3.jpeg) (http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1384)
Large kelp greenling & small BRF.
I installed a 10" radial carbon filter cartridge near the tap in our home drinking water line, primarily to remove chlorine from our potable water.
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Paul - I assume that's gutted. Do you also remove the gills?
Do you do anything else with the fish before cooking it whole like that? E.g. salt, herbs/spices, added fats like butter or oil, etc? Do you score the skin?
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Paul - I assume that's gutted. Do you also remove the gills?
Do you do anything else with the fish before cooking it whole like that? E.g. salt, herbs/spices, added fats like butter or oil, etc? Do you score the skin?
Yes, gutted. Bled, but I don't remove the gills. Never thought about it. I don't add ingredients except for smoke from the bbq. I'm a little picky about the wood I use. I the leave the skin intact to hold moisture & infuse the meat with natural oils.
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I need to try that Paul. Great idea!
-Mark-
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Paul - I assume that's gutted. Do you also remove the gills?
Do you do anything else with the fish before cooking it whole like that? E.g. salt, herbs/spices, added fats like butter or oil, etc? Do you score the skin?
Yes, gutted. Bled, but I don't remove the gills. Never thought about it. I don't add ingredients except for smoke from the bbq. I'm a little picky about the wood I use. I the leave the skin intact to hold moisture & infuse the meat with natural oils.
What woods do prefer, or at least purposely avoid?
How hot on the grill do find works well for cooking them whole?
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I would reccomend removing the gills. Gills and guts is where bacteria first grow. So if you do not filet the fish and wait prior to cooking you will want to remove the gills. If you are going straight from the ocean i doubt that the bacteria will affect the meat in that short period. But if a day goes inbetween catch/gut and cooking then you could have an issue.
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Paul - I assume that's gutted. Do you also remove the gills?
Do you do anything else with the fish before cooking it whole like that? E.g. salt, herbs/spices, added fats like butter or oil, etc? Do you score the skin?
Yes, gutted. Bled, but I don't remove the gills. Never thought about it. I don't add ingredients except for smoke from the bbq. I'm a little picky about the wood I use. I the leave the skin intact to hold moisture & infuse the meat with natural oils.
What woods do prefer, or at least purposely avoid?
How hot on the grill do find works well for cooking them whole?
Go to woods are:
Vine maple
Big leaf maple
Oak
Apple
Alder (no bark)
Depends on the size, but 300 to 325 degrees, cover to hold smoke for about 30 minutes. Keep an eye on them, flip the fish at about 15 minutes.
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I would reccomend removing the gills. Gills and guts is where bacteria first grow. So if you do not filet the fish and wait prior to cooking you will want to remove the gills. If you are going straight from the ocean i doubt that the bacteria will affect the meat in that short period. But if a day goes inbetween catch/gut and cooking then you could have an issue.
I'll be trying that soon.
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Paul - I assume that's gutted. Do you also remove the gills?
Do you do anything else with the fish before cooking it whole like that? E.g. salt, herbs/spices, added fats like butter or oil, etc? Do you score the skin?
Yes, gutted. Bled, but I don't remove the gills. Never thought about it. I don't add ingredients except for smoke from the bbq. I'm a little picky about the wood I use. I the leave the skin intact to hold moisture & infuse the meat with natural oils.
What woods do prefer, or at least purposely avoid?
How hot on the grill do find works well for cooking them whole?
Go to woods are:
Vine maple
Big leaf maple
Oak
Apple
Alder (no bark)
Depends on the size, but 300 to 325 degrees, cover to hold smoke for about 30 minutes. Keep an eye on them, flip the fish at about 15 minutes.
Excellent. No shortage of vine or big leaf maple on my place. Lots of alder too. No oak of apple sadly.
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Excellent. No shortage of vine or big leaf maple on my place. Lots of alder too. No oak of apple sadly.
Since you have it in abundance, I like vine maple & alder for the smoker also. I just downed a large apple tree in the backyard. I can bring you a bundle next time I see you. ORC? Sunset?
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If I make to ORC that would be fantastic. Not sure I'll get there though as there's a possible business trip to Europe that's being discussed that same time frame. And that assumes ORC even happens.
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If I make to ORC that would be fantastic. Not sure I'll get there though as there's a possible business trip to Europe that's being discussed that same time frame. And that assumes ORC even happens.
There's this one: https://www.facebook.com/events/1213726548778689/
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If I make to ORC that would be fantastic. Not sure I'll get there though as there's a possible business trip to Europe that's being discussed that same time frame. And that assumes ORC even happens.
There's this one: https://www.facebook.com/events/1213726548778689/
It's a looong way to Coos Bay. I'd love to go. But that time of year is also tough with school starting back up.