I'm a FOOL! Please help.

Way cool!  You guys are coming up with some really good answers.  This is exactly the kind of thread that I was hoping for.  And remember, safety is all about risk management.  All about YOU doing risk management.  “What kind of reward am I getting for my risk… what do I have to spend to reduce that risk and is it worth that?”  Richard was good enough to fire this thing off, so let me use him for an example for just a minute:

W. R. says that in his estimation it’s the power boats that are the big threat to we NWKA’s.  We haven’t quantified just how big a threat, except that W.R. seems concerned that this is how he himself might wind up dead one day, so that sounds pretty big.  So what did he do?  He bought himself a kayak that he feels like is a highly visible color.  That’s usually either a freebie or maybe $25 at the most from most kayak makers.  That rates somewhere between Infinite to really really good for getting risk reduction from his kayak dollars.  Way to go Richard!  I did the same thing when I bought mine.  More visibility?  Yep.  He has the NWKA flag up there so he can be seen even better.

I can’t imagine how we’re going to quantify how much risk he’s reduced.  This is where we all have to make our own judgments (personally, I like it that way).  But what else might be done to get more of the risk out?  I’m thinking that most of us try to deal with it by being places where the motor boaters aren’t.  No cost at ALL… except maybe the fishing opportunities lost over in that spot.  There you go, W. R. is going to have to size it up and make his own decision.

I really love Yessno’s story.  You can hardly beat those “This happened to me” stories.  I’m trying to picture how close he might have come to popping up out of the water and NOT having a grasp on his yak, with just a little breeze blowing and him trying to swim in boot and waders.  So yessno, was that ever in the realm of possible?   And of course, I’m WAY glad to hear that it didn’t turn out that way for you.

From what I’ve been taught in the kayak classes, he and Steelheader are “dead” on with their estimates on the power of the cold water.  I too have been told exactly that in the waters in our part of the world, if you are unprotected from the water you will normally have 10 min before your limbs are too numb to swim, never mind pull up on a SOT, and you will have approximately 1 hour before you are DEAD from hypothermia.

Fishin-T

i really hadn't given the color of my boat a 2nd thot when i picked it up from NWPaddler last year. fact is, i was kind of agnostic.. PFD, when i picked that up, i had read by then at least 3 issues of paddler and sea kayaker magazine, paying attention to the safety articles.. so i had a choice of red or yellow MTI @ backpackers supply in tacoma.. and chose yellow becuase red is easily missed by the human eye when just glancing around.. yellow stands out so much better.

recently read a safety article written by a caribbean outfitter who did a careful study of boat colors after a client had a tragic accident where they got run over by a 54 foot sportfisher with resulting loss of life..this was in 3-5 foot swells, so there may be mitigating circumstances.  color of the yak?? white..

the outfitter found that lime green first, then orange, showed up sooner and more easily to the human eye than white, blue, red, or a neutral color. he's now changed all his rental fleet to those two colors.  thinking that my next boat may be one of those two colors.

and yes, PB'ers who are very irresponsible are a huge worry for me. seems to be too much testoterone and money and not enough sense sometimes. but, i need to pay more attention to rights of way too, being a novice boater. @ Drano last year, learning to troll, i almost got backed over by a guy in a 14 ft Lund.. his buddy and my whistle made him get his head up and actually look back in the direction he was going. partly that was my fault, but we resolved it amicably.  maybe worse would be the irresponsible operators of waterborne motorcycles.. they seem to draw a larger proprotion of operators with little respect of others on the water.

still waiting on our flags to be made. most definitely will want to fly one. when out with yarjammer on lake sammamish for bass, i could spot him more easily by the orange scotty light extension he has for his stern light.. sometimes in the glare off the water i wasnt able to see his yellow yak but could see the pole.

and yeh, i've learned rather quickly that while there's safety in numbers when we go out as a group, it's far easier to find places that power boats dont go to do my fishing. i'm a lot happier for some reason.  

Immersion?? after huli'ing 3 times or so at pacific city, i'm glad i had spent the extra money on a farmer john instead of trying to go out in my waders and dry top. getting dumped in surf definitely takes a lot out of you. i was seriously tired by the time i finally got out to the rest of the guys just off haystack rock.

jim sammons did a great little video about drowning, or not,  while wearing waders. i won't even try to disprove it, but i will state here that when i overbalanced and dumped just off the launch at hoodsport, i ended up standing in water right at the top level of my wader bibs and did get about 5 ounces inside even with a wader belt and a dry top on. waded the boat back to shore, reboarded, then shivered for about 10 minutes as i paddled hard to catch up to the rest of the group.. my fault for not having a good synthetic base layer underneath, just a simple cotton long sleeeve t shirt.  it's been all synthetics and proper base layers since. some day i'll have that great dry suit.. just not in the budget right now.

Like T says, keep 'em coming.. we're all learning here.

I was out on the Sound Friday, water temp in deep water between Vashon and Ruston Way was 42.6 degrees F.,  survival time fully immersed at the temp is from 1 to 3 hours. In  10 minutes you will lose  use of fingers and feet, time to unconciousness (assuming you don't gasp water in and drown immediately) is 15 to 30 minutes. There's an interesting article here:

http://www.seakayakermag.com/2008/Feb08/cold-shock.htm

Over 15 years ago, Moulton Avery wrote an excellent article in this magazine (“Cold Shock,” SK, Spring ’91), noting that “immersion in cold water kills more sea kayakers than any other factor in our sport.” Cold shock has been observed in people sensitive to cold at water temperatures as high as 77°F (25°C). In water below 60°F (15°C), the effects of immersion become significantly life-threatening to everyone. The lower the temperature, the more severe the symptoms. The effects of cold shock are completely out of your conscious control. If you don’t protect yourself from cold water, they will happen to you whether you like it or not. If you really don’t believe that it will affect you, the next time you take a shower, turn the cold water on full blast and aim it at your belly button. You will soon be a believer.

Cold shock is caused by rapid skin cooling and can kill within three to five minutes after immersion. On initial immersion, you make a huge inspiratory gasp. Being immersed in near-freezing cold water is also extremely painful, and the sudden sensation of acute pain can accentuate the inspiratory gasp. The gasp is followed by severe hyperventilation: a fourfold increase in your breathing rate. It is not uncommon for you to be panting at a breathing rate of up to 65 times a minute in this critical stage, so there is no chance to hold your breath. Indeed, in water below 60°F, your breath-holding ability is reduced by 25–50 percent. If the water is near freezing, even after the effects of cold shock have settled, you’ll only be able to hold your breath for about 12–17 seconds.

The rapid breathing rate on its own can cause muscle spasms of the limbs and chest. All of these breathing irregularities increase the risk of drowning if you dip underwater or have a wave splash over your face. It only takes an inhalation of about five ounces (150 ml) of water to cause drowning. Drowning is a combination of cardiac arrest and suffocation. Your heart stops beating within one to two minutes after you have inhaled a significant amount of either fresh- or seawater. Water in the lungs compromises your ability to exchange oxygen, and because respiratory movements may occur for up to five minutes when underwater, water can continue to be drawn into your lungs.

Cold shock also causes a massive increase in heart rate and blood pressure. These cardiac responses may cause death, particularly in older, less healthy people.

The intense effects of cold shock last two to three minutes and will settle down after about five minutes of immersion. This period of involuntary reactions is just at the critical stage of sorting yourself out after your kayak has flipped and you’re working to adjust to the wind and waves and avoid inhalation of water.


Know Your Enemy
You must dress according to the water temperature, not according to the air temperature. What you are wearing at the time of immersion is critical. If it is not on you or if it’s not zipped up and ready for the water, it won’t do the job you need it to do. If you wind up in the water, your immediate enemy is not hypothermia but drowning. Respiratory distress leading to water inhalation is most likely in the first few minutes of exposure to cold water and occurs well ahead of any symptoms of hypothermia. If you are well protected from the cold, the symptoms of cold shock should be minimal. If you experience any of its symptoms, your objective for the first 30 seconds to three minutes is to keep your nose and mouth out of the water. In those first few minutes, you should be very cautious about making decisions about what course of action to take.

Precautions
You can avoid paddling in cold water, but for most sea kayakers this is not really an option. Just remember: Once you start paddling in water 60°F or lower, you have entered the danger zone.

You can, in fact, acclimatize yourself to the cold water by taking daily cold showers for about three weeks, which will reduce the symptoms of cold shock for up to about one year. For some kayakers, that may be part of preparing for cold water. It is interesting to note that prisoners at Alcatraz were allowed to take only hot showers. By eliminating the possibility of acclimating to cold water, the prisoners were prevented from being able to prepare for a swim to escape. Be prepared for the effects of cold shock when you capsize. Hold onto your kayak for support until you can control your breathing before attempting a self-rescue or assisted rescue. You don’t want to risk having your head get submerged if you can’t hold your breath.

Always wear a flotation device. The buoyancy it provides is especially important immediately after a capsize and wet exit because it helps you keep your mouth above water while your breathing is erratic. The Canadian Red Cross has reported that 88 percent of canoe-related drowning victims and 67 percent of kayak-related drowning victims in the last 10 years were not wearing PFDs. Wear the best-performing PFD or life jacket you can find. Make sure that it fits well enough to keep from riding up when you are in the water. If you can’t get the waist belt to cinch up under your rib cage, add a crotch strap to the PFD. Immersion clothing ranging from neoprene wetsuits to full dry suits will be needed depending on the trip. A neoprene cap will offer a useful measure of protection—a full hood even more, as it protects neck and ears. If you get too hot, you can always splash water on yourself and make use of evaporative cooling.

One more thought on seasickness.  I get seasick and I love to fish far offshore - not a good combination.  The dramamine(sp?) can make you feel weird.  Bonine works well and you still feel good.  And when I combine it with ginger pills, I don't have a problem.  With that said, the smaller the boat, the less the seasickness - for me anyway.  So its possible you won't feel seasick on a kayak - especially because you probably won't go out on a big swell day.  I'd give it a shot first before you load up on drugs.

Kalitype,

WOW!  What the heck can I say but "WOW!"  I was really liking Yessnoo's answer, but that one knocks it out of the park!  My original question read "what do you see as the NUMBER ONE threat to our lives" out there as anglers of the N.W.  Of COURSE!  It's just that simple... it's the cold water that we float on.  One quick spill and you're in it.  One breif moment of inattention and that icy fingered bitch has a primo chance at you.  It's like Kali said, "know thine enemy".

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I'd heard those numbers about how quickly the cold water in our part of the world will affect you, but I had never heard of "cold shock" before, even though we're almost all somewhat aware of it from our own personal experiences.  So basically, a lot of people are in danger of drowning merely because of the cold... even with a "decent PFD" like I told you that I had in my original thought exercise setup.  Maybe from cold shock, maybe because they pass out in 30 minutes from the cold.

I gotta tell you, Kali, I'm sure you're not telling us ghost stories around the campfire just to laugh cause we can't sleep tonight.  Because I followed your link and checked it out and it's all hard science stuff.  But I have to admit, if I think about this stuff too hard it gives me the creeps just a little bit.  When I get on this web site and picture you guys all out on the salt in your stories on this board... in my mind it all looks so easy and trouble free.

But wait a minute, WAIT a minute.  When I first got my first SOT on the web and I got it decked out to hit the water, I'll admit that it felt as so wobbly under me that first day that I might as well have been a big FAT guy (I mean even FATTER guy) trying to stand up on a skinny canoe.  That feeling literally subsided in just minutes though, and now the more that I go out (and especially if I practice in some rough water) the better and better she feels under me.  So I gotta know, what are the odds (I mean really) that I might capsize on any given day.  No, wait a minute.  The better, more meaningful question to me would be this:  "What are the odds that I might accidentally capsize my SOT in my lifetime if I continue to go out there about as much as the average NWKA member?"

Okay, that question is HUGE to me.  I need some data input and I can't imagine where I'm ever gonna come up with statistics and science, so I'm thinking that this is going to need a whole new thread.  Check it out:   

http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2455.0.html


Fishin-T

Well i don't feel like following the link because frankly...i am lazy...but from what i have read not only does the breathing happen initially...assuming you make it through this portion the next step is for all of your blood vessels to contract forcing most of the blood into the core section of your body...your body tries to reduce heat loss and contain it all in the core section to keep the vital organs at a reasonable temperature for longer...(the reason you hear about people taking there clothes off after getting severe hypothermia in the cold is because once your body loses control it relaxes the blood vessels and the blood from your core rushes to your extremities causing a feeling much like being on fire)

the navy seals amongst other special marine forces train for cold water immersion...but from what i have read they can only control a small amount of breathing technique...what they mostly control is the cardiovascular side to prevent there blood vessels from contracting and keep there heart rate to a minimum...i don't know how they do it but they do some sort of muscle exercises as soon as they get in the water...but nobody can control the initial gasp you take when cold water hits your skin...its totally involuntary

there are plenty of cases of well trained individuals (groups also) dieing in very cold water very quickly...

on top of that if you do happen to survive in the water and you do get rescued...if you have suffered a significant loss of body temperature and the person treating your condition doesn't know what they are doing...you will likely die
basically if you are warmed up to fast you die


im basing this all on memory of things i have read...so don't quote me on anything lol

Great thread and good answers. KT's dissertation is awesome. It has to be some of the best writing I've ever read on the subject.

I was already thinking "Cold Water Shock" as my first answer, as it could cause you to drown. But I couldn't have gone into such an informative and lengthy discussion. Wow! Great stuff. I always dress for the water temp.

Since I quit surfing, the cold seems to get to me quicker and worse. Maybe I should start taking cold showers...ugh!
I used to surf alone a lot, even during the winter, and sometimes at remote locations. Self rescue is usually all a NW surfer has to rely on. Even with your buddies in the water, you may be very alone. No lifeguards with waverunners or helicopters to yank you out, and while you are struggling in the rip after your leash snapped and your board has disappeared from view, your buddy is sitting outside looking at the horizon for the next set. He can't see you or hear you. You're on your own.
I figured getting bopped in the head by my board and getting knocked unconscious, or coming up from a wipeout with golfball-sized charley horses in BOTH calves at once might be the worst while surfing alone. I always used to take a last ride to the beach before my hypothermia got too bad, but toward the end of my surfing days, a bad charley horse would often send me to the beach after only an hour in the surf.

That's my $.02

Absolutely excellent! This is exactly what I was looking for. I'm a newB and my biggest fear was falling off the SOT in our cold Colorado waters. I see Folks on the water cycles in wet suites but not in dry suites. But I never see them until the June July time frame. Hardly ever see kayaks out here. But I am determined to give it a go.

The information on this subject has greatly increased my respect for cold water. I run a drift boat on our tail waters and although I have a waist belt pfd, I now realize that if I go over in a river that's 42 degrees, it's going to be a rough go.

When I bought my used kayak it came with a PFD. Based on what I have read on here I'll get the best dang PFD I can afford and have someone who knows how to fit me help me with the selection.

Thanks again!

When I bought my used kayak it came with a PFD. Based on what I have read on here I'll get the best dang PFD I can afford and have someone who knows how to fit me help me with the selection.

Exactly! Fit makes a big difference. The first one I got was pretty much based on price. My name is Zee, and I am a cheap ass. But when you do try a bunch on you'll find that a few that feel really good. Those are the ones you want because you're going to spend a lot of time with them on. Plus that fit just might save your ass in the end too. Anyway, my point was, tatco hit the nail on the head. Try a bunch on, get someone to point out the finer things in PFD's, and get comfy and safe out there... oh, and don't forget to get a few fish also!

Z