WDFW 2009-2010 Sportfishing Rule Changes

ya it is sad...but the problem with your theory is it has allowed the regs to get the way they are...its lazy law enforcement in my opinion...they aren't making laws so they can stop the problem...they are making laws so they can spot check and hopefully make some money...instead of getting off there butts and going out to find the bad guys...they would rather sit at the boat ramp and stop everyone who comes through

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."

yessno, please don't mistake me for a burearatic apologist  I was simply trying to explain the new rule, as I understand it and give an anecdotal account of my experience with the law as it has been.
They are trying to regulate the equipment, rather than enforce ethical behavior.  Will it stop snagging?  No.  Will it ding some people in the wallet that are not paying very close attention to the rules?  Probably.  It is a shame, my only answer thus far has been to try to educate "fishermen" that display unethical harvesting techniques, sometimes that can be a dangerous proposition...
The best thing is when you are successful in catching a fish and a snagger comes up to you and asks you about your gear and technique - then - school is in session, I'll spend a lot of time on the river with someone that shows interest in becoming an ethical angler.  

I'm with you on the enforcement side - there are hot spots where enforcement can (and sometimes do!) put the hammer down to make an example.  Puyallup and skokomish river are the big ones that come to mind.  I remember hearing about 50+ ticket days this past fall on the puyallup - including gear seizure and large fines for retaining foul hooked fish.  So, it can be done, but (back to being the devils advocate ) funding for more enforcement over a lot of fishable water is not going to happen in these times - it will be diminished if anything. 

We, as ethical anglers, need to do our part to call "BS" on this kind of behavior - if for no other reason: snaggers, littering and trespassing threaten our fishing opportunity, by getting seasons closed, nebulus gear regulations implemented and water access closed. 

ya it is sad...but the problem with your theory is it has allowed the regs to get the way they are...its lazy law enforcement in my opinion...they aren't making laws so they can stop the problem...they are making laws so they can spot check and hopefully make some money...instead of getting off there butts and going out to find the bad guys...they would rather sit at the boat ramp and stop everyone who comes through

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."

Well, that's one way of looking at it.  But I look at it another way.  They make the rules to allow them to enforce the intent under the limited budget they have to work with.  Yes, it is less than ideal.  And, as I believe you are getting at, there has got to be a better way, but I'm at a loss as to what that might be.  Let's talk about this some more ... what do you suggest they do?

-Allen

ya it is sad...but the problem with your theory is it has allowed the regs to get the way they are...its lazy law enforcement in my opinion...they aren't making laws so they can stop the problem...they are making laws so they can spot check and hopefully make some money...instead of getting off there butts and going out to find the bad guys...they would rather sit at the boat ramp and stop everyone who comes through

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."

A little historical perspective might help you to understand the situation, too. I'm going to quote from a post on another site, form someone on a WDFW Citizen Advisory Board, arguing against the proposed merger of F&W Enforcement into the the State Patrol-

This program is currently some 40 officers shy of the pre-merger number of enforcement officers at the time when the former Departments of Fisheries and Game were co-joined some 16 years ago...   ...When merged (1994), there were a total of 177 allocated commissioned officer positions between the two agencies. Point of fact, today there are 137 commissioned officer positions. From our point of view, that represents a 40 commissioned officer reduction since the merger. Now comes a recently completed Study Report from the International Association of Chiefs of Police that finds that the WDFW Enforcement Program is currently understaffed by approximately 125 commissioned officers or a needed increase of 91.2%

So, not only do we have fewer F&W officers than we did 16 years ago, but a bunch of people  have moved into the state since then. I don't think that the problem is so much laziness, but inadequate staffing.

PS is absolutely right, there are far too few WDFW officers in this state.  There is no way to adequately enforce the current regulations with the current ratio of fisheries/public lands to wardens.  Dereliction will continue regardless of the rule changes until there is a noticable presence in these areas.  In the past few years I have only ran across an actual game warden ONCE a season.  If they had an active presence on our waters they would be able to educate and enforce the rules in place as well as deter flagrant rule violations.  The people that intentionally violate the rules or feel immigrant status exempts them from them operate under the same frame of mind as speeders on backcountry roads...     

its kinda like saying...we are too lazy to catch people speeding so lets just outlaw cars that will go faster than the speed limit...another indication of how government handles a problem...they make a law about it...even though there is alrdy 3 or 4 laws that alrdy apply but they don't or won't enforce.

if the government enforced all the laws they alrdy have then there would be no need for new laws...the regs are complicated enough lets not add anymore

and as far as actually catching them in the act...make the fine much stiffer when you do catch them...imo that is a better way than making a new law that won't be enforced or will only be enforced on the people who were following it anyways


the good news is that it doesn't really matter what i think because the government will make whatever laws they want regardless...even if i vote...i think Seattle has proven that time and time again


sorry im on another conservative rant again

I understand the proving issue...but on the other hand when a cop pulls you over because you didn't signal to turn...can he prove that...no but it is his word against yours...cops are given the authority to make that judgment call...they don't go off and write another law

and to Richard...this state has also proven a few times that it creates and upholds laws based on special interest groups (not saying this is the only state but they are very blatant about it around here)

Hopefully the rules won't get as bad as they are in my business...The FAA came to our avionics shop the other day...one of the first words out of the inspectors mouth was (remember these are the guys who enforce the law)
Don't ask me to interpret any laws. We are not supposed to do that however we will tell you (and fine you) if you interpret the law wrong.
Once the laws get so complicated that you can't interpret them and the enforcers won't interpret them because they could interpret it wrong...there is a problem

ya it is sad...but the problem with your theory is it has allowed the regs to get the way they are...its lazy law enforcement in my opinion...they aren't making laws so they can stop the problem...they are making laws so they can spot check and hopefully make some money...instead of getting off there butts and going out to find the bad guys...they would rather sit at the boat ramp and stop everyone who comes through

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."

Whoa, young friend!! I understand your frustrations Mark, and I respect your opinions, but ...dude, lazy law enforcement?! I'm curious how this rule = lazy law enforcement? ALL of the field agents I've had the priviledge of knowing are amazingly dedicated, hard working individuals facing impossible odds.
There's too much here to respond to at this late hour. Let's dig into this a little deeper while we're paddling out on Saturday.

- Karl

I don't mean so much that the actual game wardens are lazy themselves...I mean the method they are forced to use is lazy law enforcement...But all of the above posts also explain a good portion of why they have to use these methods...unfortunately they aren't given the authority to make a judgment call based on there word against the perpetrators word

but the game wardens aren't the ones making the laws...some committee of big wigs is

ya it is sad...but the problem with your theory is it has allowed the regs to get the way they are...its lazy law enforcement in my opinion...they aren't making laws so they can stop the problem...they are making laws so they can spot check and hopefully make some money...instead of getting off there butts and going out to find the bad guys...they would rather sit at the boat ramp and stop everyone who comes through.

Well, I see you are only 23 and only recently moved into WA State. You sure have alot of opinions, IMHO , based on not enough experience here.
Please go back and read all the post made after this one of yours in this thread (several times, maybe). The replies are pretty much spot on. Our gamies most likely are the hardest working and most dedicated state employees we have! We really need twice as many officers in the field, at least.

You, me, us, whoever... can initiate possible changes in the fish and game laws by submitting proposals to the Game Commission. If one's proposal for changing the rules is serious,  reasonable, and based on real evidence, it might get considered and put up for discussion, and maybe even get enacted. Gasp! Yes, yesno, you can do this as an individual, if you are a resident of this state.  You don't have to leave it up to a club of some elitists. You can initiate real change in the fishing rules, yourself!
Just do your research first, and then come up with a reasonable and serious proposal to change the rules to the way you think is better.
It helps if you attend any of the public meetings concerning rulebook changes, and stand up and testify before the Game Commission about your proposal (which you have already mailed in to them by the deadline so they can preview it and get it on the roster before the public meeting.
This lets the Game Commission know you are serious. Otherwise, if you don't believe in your own proposal enough to carry the ball at least that far, they won't think you are seriously enough interested and probably will not include your proposal.
You will need to have better arguments FOR your proposal than any that other interested parties may have AGAINST it. 
Not an easy or convenient process to get involved with, to be sure. This takes dedication and time, and being able to get up in front of the Game Commission in a public meeting and state your case.
I did this a few years ago when we were working for mandatory C&R of all wild steelhead in this state. At least its down to only one wild steelhead (per angler) killed per year now. The runs are still diminishing, though.

Please go back and read all the post made after this one of yours in this thread (several times, maybe). The replies are pretty much spot on. Our gamies most likely are the hardest working and most dedicated state employees we have! We really need twice as many officers in the field, at least.

You, me, us, whoever... can initiate possible changes in the fish and game laws by submitting proposals to the Game Commission. If one's proposal for changing the rules is serious,  reasonable, and based on real evidence, it might get considered and put up for discussion, and maybe even get enacted. Gasp! Yes, yesno, you can do this as an individual, if you are a resident of this state.  You don't have to leave it up to a club of some elitists. You can initiate real change in the fishing rules, yourself!
Just do your research first, and then come up with a reasonable and serious proposal to change the rules to the way you think is better.
It helps if you attend any of the public meetings concerning rulebook changes, and stand up and testify before the Game Commission about your proposal (which you have already mailed in to them by the deadline so they can preview it and get it on the roster before the public meeting.
This lets the Game Commission know you are serious. Otherwise, if you don't believe in your own proposal enough to carry the ball at least that far, they won't think you are seriously enough interested and probably will not include your proposal.
You will need to have better arguments FOR your proposal than any that other interested parties may have AGAINST it. 
Not an easy or convenient process to get involved with, to be sure. This takes dedication and time, and being able to get up in front of the Game Commission in a public meeting and state your case.
I did this a few years ago when we were working for mandatory C&R of all wild steelhead in this state. At least its down to only one wild steelhead (per angler) killed per year now. The runs are still diminishing, though.

This sounds like good general advice for anyone in any state who wants to get involved. I know from personal experience that it's a lot easier to sit around & complain than it is to study the issue, formulate a thoughtful & responsible response, then present a rational proposal in the appropriate forum.

As for steelhead or any other anadromous fish, I have a horrible feeling that runs are going to continue to decline irregardless of sport catch & release rules in any state. I'm fairly certain that there are several other important factors that come into play here.
1. Spawning habitat: fish runs will never recover to historic levels as long as there is not enough quality habitat for them to spawn in. Upper reaches in most NW watersheds have been either cut off by dams or compromised by human activity such as road building & logging. I don't believe large state run hatchery operations or barging smolts will solve this problem.
2. Pollution: There is no doubt in my mind that the human waste stream into our air & water is reducing both aquatic & terrestrial biodiversity. If we don't aggressively address this problem soon, we're going to choke on our own garbage.
3. Ocean conditions: What's happening to these fish while they're in the ocean? As far as I can tell, we don't really know. Is ocean acidification (caused by pollution) affecting their survival somehow (killing prey species)? How many NW anadromous salmonids are the Hake trawlers (foreign & domestic) taking? What affect are other predator species, such ash Humboldt squid, having on these fish populations?