Kokatat Outer Layer Advice

Having a true NW attitude of "Weather be damned", I decided to gear up for some foul weather paddling.  I'm not planning on tackling the Ocean, but lakes, big rivers and some bays are my destinations.  I have plenty of cold weather gear, but none specific to paddling.  I've be using my Waders on the bottom half as I like to fly fish and get out occasionally, but need a better paddling specific kit for the top half.  I've yet to come close to tipping my yak (been too cold to do so intentionally), and I'm a pretty strong swimmer, but there is this little voice in my head that says I need something with better seals to "slow down the water" filling up my waders while I get back in my yak if I were to turn over.

After doing some research online, I decided I wanted a Gore-Tex Kokatat garment and narrowed it down to a number of options from a Packlite Paddling jacket up to their Rouge Dry Top.  Yesterday I went down to Alder Creek Kayak in Portland and they had a range of tops to try on.  Here's my impressions of what I found (Note there is a question coming...stay put).

- Kokatak  Rouge Dry Top - All the Kokatat products seemed well built.  This looked like a true expedition grade garment.  With the sales persons help I was able to barely get into the latex neck gasket and immediately had an extreme claustrophobic reaction to it.  I know they loosen up a bit, but I started really panicking and couldn't get my wrists out of it either.  I'm a bigger guy, but their XL was WAY too tight all over - and afterwards I swore I WILL NOT try one of those again.  There was no way I could wear a layer underneath either without going a size bigger, and they all have the same size neck.   And the price wasn't great at  $399.

- Kokatat TecTour - I wanted this one to work for me as it has a hood and I thought that would be nice in our rainy weather.  The XL size was a little better and the lack of a vinyl neck seal solved the claustrophobic problem.  However, the dual skirt idea was a waste, with waders - and I have a good rain hat already so is hard to justify the $370.  He did say that I could tuck in the first layer inside of my waders (without using the suspenders of course), then use the outside later as a seal over the waders.

- Kokatat Action Jacket – Finally, one that fit better, the vinyl wrist seemed a bit tight and uncomfortable, but looks like little water will get past them.  The one thing I didn't like was that the collar opened to the back so getting the velcro just right to keep it tightly closed was a bit weird, and leaving it open to breath made it feel like I had it on backwards (I had to check a couple of times to ensure I didn't have it on backwards).  This, like the others above, has a 3 layer gore-tex waterproofing which was nice.  Medium priced at $240

- Kokatat Packlite Jacket - This one fit really nice.  It still had a pretty tight seal on the neck and wrists via velcroed Lycra seals and a Neoprene waist.  It's Gore-tex, but only 2 layer and the price was a bit better at $165.  The big difference was that it was a 3 layer XCR Gore-Tex and the Vinyl wrist cuffs.

After trying these on at the store, the Packlite was by far the most comfortable and so that's the one I bought.  But now I'm having second thoughts - maybe somebody with some experience with these tops can provide some expertise.
- Is it realistic to think that a top like a Packlite will keep "the majority" of water out while I struggle to get back on my yak in the event of flip.  I'm concerned about waders filling up more than anything.  Or is a true dry top the only ones that will work in that event?
- Seems like any of them will work for keeping the rainy weather out, but wondering if layering fleece etc. is more effective on the more expensive tops.   Also, is it worth it to go with the Gore-Tex XCR material vs. the Gore-Tex Packlite?
- The Packlite lacks the Latex Wrist Gaskets and instead has a “Gusseted Lycra Splash cuff”.  In the store it seemed like it can get pretty tight, do those work or do I really need a vinyl gasket?  (Hate water dripping down to my armpit!)
- If any of you have garmets with velcro neck splash collars, do you keep them fastened all day? It seemed like you would want to "breathe" every once in while, which is a factor why I choose the Packlite over the Action Jacket, but without experience maybe it's a non issue?  Should comfort in the store, be a consideration?

Sorry about the long question, feel free to just say "Keep it" or "Take it back and get the XXXX". 

Some observations ...

You can modify neck gaskets to fit your neck.  I removed a few rings from the neck gasket of my Kokatat drysuit.

Goretex is a matter or personal taste.  My drysuit is Goretex because I typically generate a lot of heat and moisture.  For a paddle jacket (not a dry top) you may have enough breath-ability in the arms and neck.

Dress for cold water immersion ... if that's your intent.  Test your waders and use a belt.  I've been known to wear a shorty wetsuit under my wadera and paddle jacket (before I got a dry suit).  The thought was if I went for a swim, the shorty would keep my core warm.

I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of the full drysuit.

-Allen

You get what you pay for.  If you are really wanting to challenge the elements, nothing short of a dry suit is going to make you happy.  I'd return the jacket and save up for a full dry suit.  Check out the Semi Dry suit, the Super Nova, from Kokatat.  It's got Latex ankle and wrist, and a neoprene neck I believe.  It's made for light immersion, and does leak at the neck some.  This will help out your reaction to the neck gasket.  Assuming you don't stay with your head under water, you should be fine with the small amount of leakage, as the PFD will hold you above the water.  They may have Semi-Dry tops like this as well.  Check with NRS and Kayak Fishing Stuff.

http://www.nrsweb.com
http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com

However, take my advice with a grain of salt, as I don't have a dry suit, can't afford a good one, and after one visit to Alder Creek, I have no intentions of ever going back.  I planned to purchase 3 items, and new I would be paying roughly $300.  I ended up buying two, for $188.  I didn't think much of it because of my planned $300.  After I got back on the road, I checked my reciept, and saw they overcharged me.  At the time, there was a sign that said all touring paddles 20% off, which I didn't get for my touring paddle, and there was a sign that said my PFD was on sale for $50, and they charged me $86.

I live on the coast and I have had no time to go up there, and most likely those signs and sales are now gone and forgotten.  So I lost $50 or so from them.  The only way I'll go back is if I need to try something on, and then I'll buy the same model online.

Oh, and I went to their 'boathouse' by OMSI first, and that's not even a store.  I've seen small coffee shops with more space in it then their retail area.  Even their Jantzen Beach Store isn't that large, and I wasn't impressed that they had no kayak seats at all.  They had a Canoe Seat or two though.

Next Adventure really wasn't that much better.  They had almost no touring paddles, and the one's they had were high end Carbon Fiber and were $250+.  They only had a seat for the Emotion Brand Kayaks.  Maybe their summer selection would have been better.

I hate to say it, but I've always found REI a better source for boating gear.  Next Adventure has a decent selection in season, but really caters more to the whitewater boating crowd. With REI you can do the mail order thing, and get their nice garountee and return policy.

I've been paddling throughout the winter since I moved here 8 years ago. Drysuits are hard to beat when it comes to staying warm & dry regardless of conditions. Wade, paddle, swim, whatever. I get to the car, pull it off, and drive home in the fleece I was wearing underneath. The gaskets do take getting used to, but they will stretch a bit over time through use. They can also be cut or stretched with something a bit wider than the opening. Another option might be going with a suit that has a neoprene neck gasket instead of the latex. Kokatat doesn't offer it in their Gore models, but their Tropos SuperNova has a neoprene neck gasket. The Tropos fabric is not as breathable as GoreTex, but it is also $200-$300 less expensive, and not nearly so painful on the neck. Stohlquist also makes a nice drysuit with a neoprene neck gasket.

If you're combining a top with waders, you're likely going to get some water in when you swim, even with a full dry top like the Rogue. How much probably depends more on the wader setup, which I'm not familiar with, but with a full drytop, the only place water is coming in will be at the bottom. So if you can use the inner tunnel to make a good seal with the waders, you should be able to keep most of the water at bay.

The other tops you listed are all paddle/splash jackets, more than dry tops, and you'll likely get more water into both the jacket and waders than with a full dry top. I've been using the Tec Tour for the last couple seasons, and really like it. The inner tunnel has never been a hindrance, even when paddling a SOT, and would also help minimize the amount of water getting into your waders. I really like the wrist gaskets vs. the Velcro/Lycra closures on the other tops. Otherwise I always seem to end up with water pooling in my elbows. You will get some water in through the neck if you're swimming, but it's usually minimal unless you're in rough conditions. I do have a PacLite full-zip jacket, but I only use it as a rain coat now.

So that's my highly biased 2 cents.
Brian

Thanks everybody for their advice.  The guy at the Alder Creek store downtown was pretty helpful and said it was no problem to return the Packlite jacket.  I haven't used it yet, so think I may take another look at a more technical solution. 

I don't think I'm ready to step up to a dry suit yet, as I don't have enough days in the Kayak to justify it yet.  In my three trips so far I haven't even landed a fish yet! If I become "hooked" I could see buying the full get up.  I like the features of that TecTour and keep coming back to it, I think I'll go down there and try it on again and see if I can get a decent seal with my waders.