ORC vs AOTD scoring system.

Big leap to assume sponsorship equates to a more competent angler. 

To that end, having a pro division that required technical proficiency and a plan would most certainly seperate the men from the boys.   

-Spot-

I think that would seperate the "us" from the "them".  ORC is a big party, and having those kinds of divisions, IMHO, would detract from the fun. 

I could see someone organizing a pro-staff only tournament as an event seperate from ORC.  Since I seriously doubt I'd ever have the time to dedicate to kayak fishing to ever make a pro-staff I'd never be invited to such an event, but that's OK.  I had fun reading about Jammer's trip to the Hobie bass tournament last year.  That was totally cool, and I only wish I was able to fish at a level that would get me such an invite.

I think that would seperate the "us" from the "them".  ORC is a big party, and having those kinds of divisions, IMHO, would detract from the fun. 

I could see someone organizing a pro-staff only tournament as an event seperate from ORC.  Since I seriously doubt I'd ever have the time to dedicate to kayak fishing to ever make a pro-staff I'd never be invited to such an event, but that's OK.  I had fun reading about Jammer's trip to the Hobie bass tournament last year.  That was totally cool, and I only wish I was able to fish at a level that would get me such an invite.

To be clear, the seperation I've suggested would be divisions WITHIN the ORC.  Everybody would be fishing the same place/day for the same hours.  The majority of the schwag would go to the "non-pro" participants.  Bragging rights and a different prize pool would go to the pro-staffers (This would help aleviate the issue of sponsored fishermen winning  high $$ gear from rival companies).

The only downside is that some of the non-sponsored fishermen enjoy pitting their skills against those of the pro-staff guys. 

-Spot-

So does the "pro" in pro staff = professional or promotional? .  What defines a pro staffer?  I personally like Spots idea.

So does the "pro" in pro staff = professional or promotional? .  What defines a pro staffer?  I personally like Spots idea.

I think you have to have a sponsor's wrap on your minivan... ha ha... where is that vid?

In my mind, a prostaffer is anyone who recieves inducements ($$, gear or discounds on gear) from a manufacturer or distributor who is looking to have their product represented in a given fishery.

-Spot-

Pro-staff stands for "promotional staff".  We are there to help promote our sponsor's brands.  A professional kayak angler would be someone who makes their living primarily from kayak fishing and I don't think anyone here falls under that category.

That said, sponsors are finicky.  They'd really like their pro-staffers to do well in tournaments, but when they sponsor an event, they'd really like non-prostaffers to go home with the big prizes.   Spot's idea of the big prizes for top non-prostaff anglers and bragging rights an alternative prizes for prostaffers would help with this. 

Brian

I agree with those above who mentioned the "us vs. them" feeling that having divisions would produce. Try as you might keep it all one big happy family, it wouldn't end up that way, it's just human nature. I wasn't able to go to either tourney this year (was a gnat's hair away from AOTD), but one of the fun points in my mind of the ORC would be to be rubbing elbows with, and on an even playing field with, pro-staffers and experts.

I guess part of it boils down to this: Is the primary point to have fun, or to be competitive? I'd hope the former, with the competition aspect a secondary concern. If you favor the competition aspect, you might as well have divisions, heats, multiple events, etc.

The other downside of it is making feel more like a bass tournament.  There are also extremely varying degrees of sponsorship between different companies / brands.

You got some guys getting huge discounts on new boats, free tackle, cheap rods/reels, etc. etc. and you got others that get a small discount on a single facet of their kayak fishing, like a drysuit or a 20% discount on gear.

"pro-staff" doesn't have a consistent level of benefits.

 From the first ORC its been my perception, that the ORC was seen as a competition where we also had fun. 

Where is the line (monetary or otherwise) that sepereates a pro-staffer from a non pro-staffer?  Icon in sig line? Part of a "team"? Promoting a business? It seems you are one or you aren't regardless of level of compensation.  How many pro-staffers are there on NWKA? Are we talking a new division for 8 guys or 28 guys?

I am for keeping it as one division, but I think pro staff should have some rules on what prizes they can take home.  Two rules I can think of are; no winning prizes from one of your sponsors, and no winning prizes from a direct competitor of you sponsors.  This will limit the ability of pro-staffers from taking prizes that they already get a deal on or prizes that they can't use and are just going to sell.   

Okay, I just spent way too long writing what Nate basically just said, but I'm posting it anyway..

I would say that if you're sponsored enough that your sponsor wants you to mention them in your forum profile then you're a pro-staffer.  I would also include those that work in the industry and are inclined to put their company in their profile.

What about something where we all compete together for bragging rights and trophies, but prizes are limited to non-prostaffers.  We can be more nuanced about it... prizes are limited to non-prostaffers within a given category.  For example, if you have a kayak sponsorship you can't win a kayak but you could win a new rod and reel combo.  Likewise, if you're sponsored by a Shimano you can't win the rod and reel, but you could win say a new paddle.  Basically, if you win a prize in a category that you are sponsored in you have to pass on that prize and take the next prize down. 

Brian

My two cents... Let all compete with the same set of rules.
I live on a lake that is 5 miles wide and 43 miles long.
There are 10 guides or charter boats working this lake.
The Lake Pend Oreille Idaho Club has a fall and spring derby.
The guides are given free entrance to these contests. Or, they were when I was president and VP of said club.
Most of the guides were good friends.
No matter, we liked to kick their ''professional'' arses...
If an angler wins something he/she can choose to donate it back or raffle it immediately.
Fun is fun. The more the better.
Grant

I am not a fan of making hard divisions among our small group.
If we do the top prizes like we did this year then it is left to the integrity of the individual to not choose a product type that you are already repping for.
That way everyone can still play and if you are on a kayak team and you win first place you might walk away with a thousand dollar dry suit instead of a new kayak .... Still an awesome prize.

Less rules are better.

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

I would say that if you're sponsored enough that your sponsor wants you to mention them in your forum profile then you're a pro-staffer.  I would also include those that work in the industry and are inclined to put their company in their profile.

This was a requirement Allen stated in the Industry Affiliates forum.

We can be more nuanced about it... prizes are limited to non-prostaffers within a given category.  For example, if you have a kayak sponsorship you can't win a kayak but you could win a new rod and reel combo.  Likewise, if you're sponsored by a Shimano you can't win the rod and reel, but you could win say a new paddle.  Basically, if you win a prize in a category that you are sponsored in you have to pass on that prize and take the next prize down. 

I am for keeping it as one division, but I think pro staff should have some rules on what prizes they can take home.  Two rules I can think of are; no winning prizes from one of your sponsors, and no winning prizes from a direct competitor of you sponsors.  This will limit the ability of pro-staffers from taking prizes that they already get a deal on or prizes that they can't use and are just going to sell.   

These seem more realistic.

However, a "pro" division for a contest with ~80 people?  NCKA has way bigger tournaments, do they have pro divisions?  None of us are "pros" in the sense of the competitive scene.  As stated before, the "pros" with their own divisions get PAID to do their sport - pro surfers, for example - and they go on tours, to multiple tournaments, year round.  I don't think that the ORC, or kayak fishing in general has reached that level yet.  The only thing close is Hobie's tournament, but that's an invitational for their team members, so it's not really a good comparison either.

Over complication sucks.

It's really pretty simple:  The top 10 get to pick their prizes in order (which was an awesome change this year BTW!), and if it's from your sponsor or a direct competitor, don't pick it up.  (unless you know your sponsor is cool with it)

I like having the Pro-staff around.  They are willing to share knowledge and help anyone who asks.  Allan always takes a noob out with him and shows him/her the ropes, Michael didn't compete, taking a camera man around and still ran a great event, Nate used a barbie pole to catch everything.  These guys aren't here to take top prizes! No they are here to have fun like the rest of us. Please just keep the peace, a lot of thought already comes into play when our Admin team puts on one of these events.