Grande Ronde float trip?

I'll be taking my outback.  No mirage drive and I'll swap out my rudder for the original.

I suggest that you leave your rudder bungied on the back deck of your kayak for the trip.  You'd only need to clip one rock with the rudder to bust up the steering mechanism.

So is a slow paddling and slow maneuvering kayak like an Outback without the mirage drive and rudder appropriate for this float?

-Allen

Thanks for all the intel Pete!

I would think that the same features that make an outback less than optimal for paddling could actually be an advantage in moving water.  Boats with a pronounced chine tend to get stuck on a line and have a hard time crossing seams.  The outtie's bottom just has the one rounded hump in the center.  That's just my speculation though.

-Spot-

So is a slow paddling and slow maneuvering kayak like an Outback without the mirage drive and rudder appropriate for this float?
-Allen

If you have experience in paddling rivers, you'll do fine on the Grande Ronde at moderate levels in an Outback with the Mirage Drive out and the rudder up.  It's a big heavy boat, and when it's loaded with overnight gear it'll be heavier, but if you keep a watch downstream and anticipate where you need to move to, you'll do fine.  A disadvantage of the Outback over the Revolution for paddling rivers is that it has a big mound along the keel which sticks down into the water, so it will hang up on the bottom sooner than a kayak with a flatter bottom, such as the Revolution.

I'd rather paddle a river in my 13' Revolution than my 13' Trident, because the Revolution has a little rocker, and turns fairly quickly when paddled.  The Trident has reverse rocker, in that the keel is lower at the bow and stern than in the middle of the boat, and the bow and stern have a pretty sharp keel.  As a result, the Trident turns quite slowly.   But I paddle my Trident on rivers.  I just need to think more like a canoeist and less like a whitewater kayaker.

I posted some suggestions about how to pack overnight gear in an Outback on the Hobie Forum at http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50121 .

Great info.  I'm in an Outback also and looks like I'll be leaving the dive at home.  I paddled my outback for most of  year while I was without the mirage drive and I floated some class II/III rapids on the Rogue...it felt big, but worked out pretty well.  I wish I had a Coosa for a second kayak, I imagine this would be a perfect trip for it.

I'm a whitewater kayaker, and am used to being able to control a kayak with my thighs on thigh braces.  I have thigh straps which I can clip onto my 13' Trident when paddling in whitewater or in big waves in a lake.  The thigh straps give me much more control over the kayak when bracing into or plowing through big waves.  In a sit-on-top kayak without the thigh straps, in big waves I feel like a marble rolling around on a plate.

I haven't installed padeyes for my thigh straps on my 13' Revolution yet, because l can't pedal the Mirage drive while tucked under thigh straps (duh!).  If I lived on the coast and paddled in and out through surf, I'd definitely set up my Revolution for thigh straps. 

You shouldn't need thigh straps for running the Grande Ronde at moderate levels, because it's pretty much a Class II river, which from the perspective of a whitewater kayaker is flat water.  At higher levels, thigh straps would be helpful.

So is a slow paddling and slow maneuvering kayak like an Outback without the mirage drive and rudder appropriate for this float?
-Allen

If you have experience in paddling rivers, you'll do fine on the Grande Ronde at moderate levels in an Outback with the Mirage Drive out and the rudder up.  It's a big heavy boat, and when it's loaded with overnight gear it'll be heavier, but if you keep a watch downstream and anticipate where you need to move to, you'll do fine.  A disadvantage of the Outback over the Revolution for paddling rivers is that it has a big mound along the keel which sticks down into the water, so it will hang up on the bottom sooner than a kayak with a flatter bottom, such as the Revolution.

I'd rather paddle a river in my 13' Revolution than my 13' Trident, because the Revolution has a little rocker, and turns fairly quickly when paddled.  The Trident has reverse rocker, in that the keel is lower at the bow and stern than in the middle of the boat, and the bow and stern have a pretty sharp keel.  As a result, the Trident turns quite slowly.   But I paddle my Trident on rivers.  I just need to think more like a canoeist and less like a whitewater kayaker.

I posted some suggestions about how to pack overnight gear in an Outback on the Hobie Forum at http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50121 .

I have a background in white water paddling, so I'm not really concerned about myself.  And I don't own an Outback either.  But I wanted to make sure of the water conditions.  Guys, take note please, pmmpete said "If you have experience in paddling rivers".  Pete, what if you don't have that experience, is an Outback on this stretch of water at moderate levels a good place to get that experience?

-Allen

Guys, take note please, pmmpete said "If you have experience in paddling rivers".  Pete, what if you don't have that experience, is an Outback on this stretch of water at moderate levels a good place to get that experience?-Allen

In my opinion, the Grande Ronde at moderate levels would be a good place for a kayak fisherman with little moving-water experience to get that experience.  It's wide, easy, and requires little maneuvering, so it's a pretty forgiving river.

However, I have seen a lot of beginners in action on rivers, and am certainly aware that they can get in trouble.  They don't know how to read the water.  (What is that up ahead - is that a wave, a rock, a log, a hole, or a five foot high waterfall?)  They don't appreciate how the current moves them around in the river. (Why does that rock seem to be heading right towards me?  I was way over on the other side of the river a minute ago!) They don't appreciate river hazards. (I think I'll float up to that log which is sticking out into the current, hang onto it, and fish for a while). So if you don't have experience paddling moving water, but you want to run the Grande Ronde or any other river, go with somebody experienced, so they can train you up, and so you can follow them down the river.

I had a friend who wanted to go canoeing with me.  It quickly became apparent from the way he paddled his canoe that he thought that paddling a canoe down a river was like pedaling a bicycle down a road, and that he didn't appreciate that the water in the river was moving, and could sweep him from one side of the river to the other.  On one of our trips, I paddled around a corner and saw a log jam in the middle of the current, with easy routes on either side of it.  I though "Neil could get in trouble here," so I pulled over to the bank and got out.  I walked over and stood on the bank next to the log jam.  When Neil paddled around the corner with his girlfriend, I waved him over towards the bank, and pointed that he should go past the log jam in the channel right in front of me, all with big sweeping arm gestures.  Well, Neil paddled his canoe right smack into the center of the log jam.  The canoe tipped over, and Neil and his girlfriend took a swim.  I couldn't believe it.  Neil eventually figured out how to read water and plan a course down a section of river, and he got into whitewater kayaking and became a pretty good kayaker.  But it took him longer than most people to figure it out.  I think of Neil when I'm taking beginners down rivers, and remind myself that they may not have skills and aptitudes which I take for granted.

Here's some good reference info. for the proposed trip.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/detail/id/3081#main

http://www.raftingthewest.com/rp-Grande-Ronde-River.htm

-Spot-

Thoughts on a Malibu stealth 14 on this trip?  I've only done whitewater from two man rafts shot some class 3, and a really quick/short class 4 (and it's been quite a few years).  running a kayak will be a new experience for me on whitewater - from what I've seen in the pictures not too worried unless I'm really missing something with the Malibu's performance (which I'm sure is less than optimal).

I would also really appreciate if someone could post an essential equipment list for a 3 day float.  I would begin planning for this just like I would a backpacking/mountaineering trip - just want to make sure and reference off experienced float trips of others.  this would also give some time to budget in any purchases needed.

Pete is spot on and obviously very experienced. Running rivers is 99.9% about understanding how to read rivers and interpret the flows, read rapids; anticipating what's causing the white water you see, the eddyline, what happens when the river narrows, and understanding class II's are as capable of ruining your day / float as class III's, IV's, and higher.  With that said, it's MUCH easier to read a river from the elevated view of a raft then from the water level view of a kayak. If you haven't done it before, this wouldn't been a great time to learn (April). If you have, you'll have a great time. And most importantly, the fishing can be mind blowing .

But if your thinking of signing on for this trip, just remember the Grande Ronde is very capable of blowing out overnight, doubling in CFS, and becoming brown and angry, especially in April. I've seen it first hand. If you're comfortable in your skills, DO THIS TRIP. If your not.....trust your gut.

Sorry if I've been a buzzkill. Hope not, you'll have a blast!

Pete is spot on and obviously very experienced. Running rivers is 99.9% about understanding how to read rivers and interpret the flows, read rapids; anticipating what's causing the white water you see, the eddyline, what happens when the river narrows, and understanding class II's are as capable of ruining your day / float as class III's, IV's, and higher.  With that said, it's MUCH easier to read a river from the elevated view of a raft then from the water level view of a kayak. If you haven't done it before, this wouldn't been a great time to learn (April). If you have, you'll have a great time. And most importantly, the fishing can be mind blowing .

But if your thinking of signing on for this trip, just remember the Grande Ronde is very capable of blowing out overnight, doubling in CFS, and becoming brown and angry, especially in April. I've seen it first hand. If you're comfortable in your skills, DO THIS TRIP. If your not.....trust your gut.

Sorry if I've been a buzzkill. Hope not, you'll have a blast!

Thanks guys for chiming in.  This is sort of what I was thinking, but without any first hand knowledge of this river, it was hard for me to really chime in.

Here's what a relatively benign river did to experienced paddler with no experience on a river ... http://www.kayakfishingmagazine.net/articles/102-current-issue-featured-articles-on-kayak-fishing/1788-the-first-descent.html

-Allen

I would also really appreciate if someone could post an essential equipment list for a 3 day float.  I would begin planning for this just like I would a backpacking/mountaineering trip - just want to make sure and reference off experienced float trips of others.  this would also give some time to budget in any purchases needed.

I do a lot of multi-day unsupported whitewater kayak trips.  I'll first make some general suggestions about gear for that kind of trip, and then give you the equipment list I use for multi-day whitewater kayak trips.

1. Pack like a backpacker.  A fishing kayak should easily be able to carry about twice as much gear as most backpackers carry, but that doesn't mean you need to use all the space in your kayak.  Go light.  Don't bring gear unless you absolutely need it, but bring enough gear to be prepared for really bad weather and various potential emergencies.

2. The advantages of a dry suit.  If the weather and/or the water is cold enough to justify wearing a dry suit, the dry suit will keep your clothing dry, and you can wear the same clothing on the river and off the river.  This is a major advantage, because it means that you only need to bring one complete set of clothing, with changes of underwear and socks.  On a cold morning, you may be wearing most of your clothing under your dry suit, and you can shed some of that clothing as the temperature rises during the day.  On a trip where you anticipate that the weather will be sufficiently warm that you won't want to wear a dry suit, you paradoxically may need to bring more clothing than a trip on which you will be wearing a dry suit, because you need to bring a second complete set of dry clothing to change into when you get off the river.  You'll also need to hassle with trying to dry out your river clothing every evening, in an effort to avoid having to put on cold clammy clothing the next morning.

3. Shelter.  I like to bring a 1.5 person tent or a small two person tent on kayak trips.  I've owned a lot of one person tents, and they can be pretty cramped.  They are often too small to comfortably change clothing while you're in the tent, and there isn't room for all your gear in the tent, so you need to find a dry place to store your gear outside the tent.  When whitewater kayaking I prefer what I call a 1.5 person tent, which is a tent which has about a foot of space next to your sleeping pad where you can lay out all your gear, and which is big enough to sit up and change clothing.  On trips where there are a lot of bugs, such as in northern Canada, Alaska, and some parts of Mexico, I bring a small two person tent.  If you're using a fishing kayak, you'll have plenty of room to bring a two person tent for yourself.  If you'll be sharing a tent with somebody, you can each carry half of the tent.

I also bring a lightweight nylon 10' x 12' tarp on kayak trips.  This is at least as important as bringing a tent, because if it starts raining, 3-4 people can comfortably hang out and cook under the tarp.  The lower the tarp, the better it will protect you from rain.  I rig my tarps high in the center, and with the sides only about two feet off the ground.  I sit under the tarp in a "Crazy Creek" style packpacking chair.  I have made nylon pockets which go over the ends of kayak paddles, so I can support the tarp on paddles if there aren't any trees near the campground.  A light colored tarp is nice in dark gloomy overcast rainy weather, and a dark tarp provides good shade in hot sunny weather.  In the picture shown below, notice how the tarp is rigged off a kayak paddle, and that it is rigged low in order to provide better protection in rainy and windy weather.  The sun is shining in this picture, but thunderstorms blew through periodically during the afternoon and evening, so we needed the tarp.



4.  Seating.  I bring a "Crazy Creek" style camp chair, or a seat cover into which I insert my Thermarest style sleeping pad to make a camp chair.  Such a chair is much more comfortable than perching on your kayak, or leaning against a tree (assuming any are available), or squatting on the ground like a monkey.  Note my empty camp chair in the picture shown above.  My friend's back is shot to hell, so he likes to set his camp chair on top of his kayak.

5. Hang your food at night.  Always hang your food from a tree or a cliff at night, or even if you leave camp to go hiking, to protect it from bears, rodents, ring-tailed cats, or whatever other varmints live in the area.

6. Garbage compacter bags.  I always bring a pair of garbage compacter bags on kayak trips.  They take up almost no space, and are real useful.  You can put your food in compacter bags after you take it out of your kayak, you can lay a bag on the ground and set food on it when cooking, and you can use the bags to hang your food at night.  Note the compacter bags in use in the picture shown above.

7.  Water bag.  I bring a water bag to hold water for cooking, and to carry water on the river when necessary.  You can buy a water bag from a camping store, but some kinds of box wine bags work great.  When I set up camp, I fill up the water bag and lay it next to the cooking area.  Then when you need water while cooking, all you need to do is reach over, grab the bag, and squirt or pour water into your pot.  It's way more convenient than constantly jumping up and hiking over to the river to get water.  Note the water bag on top of the kayak in the picture shown above.  And if the water in the river is muddy, you can stop at a clean side spring in the afternoon before you reach camp and fill up several water bags to use at camp.  In the picture shown below, my friend is filling up a box wine bag from a clear side stream after Loon Creek on the Middle Fork of the Salmon blew out and turned the river into muck.



8. Gear storage.  You'll need to figure out how to pack your gear in your kayak.  All gear should be in waterproof bags, and if it isn't under a closed hatch, it should be attached to the kayak.  Every model of kayak presents different gear storage issues, but in a fishing kayak you can probably strap a large dry bag in the storage well behind your seat, and you can probably put several smaller dry bags in the front hatch.  In most fishing kayaks, there is also a lot of other space inside the kayak which you can figure out how to use.  Items which you will need while you are on the river, such as your river map, suntan lotion, fishing gear, or your throw bag, should be packed where you can get them out while you are on the river.  Items which you will or may need during the day, such as your lunch, hiking boots, or an extra sweater, should be packed where you can easily dig them out.  Gear which you won't need until you stop for the evening can be buried.

9.  Group gear versus individual gear.  Some items everybody needs to bring.  Other items can be shared by a group of kayakers.  For example, everybody needs to bring their own sleeping pad, but you may only need to bring one stove, one water filter, one satellite phone, one breakdown paddle, one large first aid kit, etc.

10.  Repair gear.  Don't forget to bring repair gear.  This can be as basic as duct tape and Aquaseal, to more elaborate equipment.  You hope you will end up carrying it for years without using it, but if something gets busted, it's great to be able to repair it.  My kayak repair kit includes some raft patch fabric and some vinyl glue, which is an effective way to repair a cracked kayak, as shown in the following pictures from a Jarbidge-Bruneau kayak trip.





11.  Sleeping gear.  You want to sleep in comfort.  Bring a good sleeping pad and an inflatable pillow.  I used to use a 1" thermarest type pad, but as I got older, after a couple of nights of camping my hips would get sore, and I'd end up flipping over and over like a fish at night.  So I moved up to a 1.5" thermarest type pad, and now to a thick puffy air mattress.  I used to build elaborate pillows by carefully layering clothing inside a stuff bag, but usually ended up with a lump which prodded me in the face all night.  Now I bring an inflatable pillow, which is way easier and way more comfortable.

12. Gear list.  I'm a big fan of developing a gear list for each outdoor activity.  A gear list can make it real easy to pack for a trip, and it greatly reduces the chances that you will forget something.  If you realize that you didn't bring something which you need, add it to the list.  If you realize that you have been bringing something which you never use, take it off the list, unless it's emergency gear, which you bring but hope you never need to use.

The gear list shown below is my gear list for multi-day whitewater kayak trips. It covers the gear which I would bring on a long trip in potentially cold and inclement conditions.  On shorter and warmer trips, I may not bring some of these items.

(a)  Kayaking equipment:
Paddle
Spray skirt
Life vest
Helmet with nose plug
Neoprene hat
Full dry suit, or dry top and dry pants
Waterproof gloves with liners
Spare waterproof gloves with liners
Neoprene booties

(b) Camping equipment:
Tent with stakes
Rain tarp, with nylon pockets to rig it from paddles
Sleeping bag with stuff sack
Sleeping pad
Inflatable pillow
Camp chair cover for sleeping pad
Rope for hanging food
Several lengths of cord for extending tent and tarp guy ropes when necessary
Headlamp with extra batteries
2 trash compacter bags

(c)  Clothing.
T shirt,polypro
Zip turtleneck shirt, mid weight polypro
Zip turtleneck shirt, expedition weight polypro
2 sweaters
Fiberfill jacket
Underwear briefs (several pairs)
Long underwear, mid weight polypro
Long underwear, expedition weight
Pile pants
Nylon shorts
Nylon hiking pants
Parka, lightweight breathable
Rain pants, lightweight breathable
Baseball hat
Pile hat with brim
Gloves
Socks (several pairs)
Hiking boots, in plastic bags to keep other gear clean

(d) Cooking equipment:
Two 1 liter water bottles (also for use on the river)
Water filter
Stove
Fuel containers with fuel
Pots
Pot gripper
Plastic bowl
Plastic cup
Spoons and fork
Dishwashing abrasive pad
Water bag

(e) Toiletries:
Suntan lotion
Chap stick for lips
Toothbrush and toothpaste
Hand lotion (small)
Shampoo (small)
Detergent (for washing clothing on long trips)
Pack towel
Electric razor
Glasses case

(f) Poop transportation equipment
Container for poop (I use a Stearns screw top dry bag, no longer available)
Toilet paper
Paper towels
Plastic bags
Hand soap
Bleach or other disinfectant

(g) Emergency equipment:
Throw bag
Breakdown paddle
Carabiners
Prussic knots
Pulley
River knife (mounted on life vest)
Whistle (mounted on life vest)
Folding saw
Repair kit
First aid supplies
Satellite phone
Signaling mirror
Bear Spray
Handgun with holster and belt (10mm Glock with 2 extra magazines)

(h) Miscellaneous:
Camera
Extra camera batteries
River maps
Reading material

While I feel that the trip is doable. The other person going with me is not up to the task. A relative beginner not ready for this trip. I will be at Rondowa early in March. We are going in overland.

BTW, just curious, why are we looking at an end of season trip in April instead of a beginning of season trip in Oct/Nov?

-Allen

The best dates are mid Feb thru mid March.