Rudder or not.

i meant scupper pro, not scrambler xt.

i like glide and effecientcy....just haven't found a SOT that does either very well.

-jason

I try not to be an "elitist", but more of a purist.

Whoa mule!

 I'm all up for proper training. I don't think anybody should get in any type of ,,,,,unmotorized personal water craft (for lack of a better term) without the skills and knowledge to properly navigate the waters they ply. That means being able to deal with life guards in pools or car carriers on the Columbia and to be skilled enough to only need to check their bait when the boat turns over. In fact, I'm pissed because I have to drive 5 hrs to up my bcu rating since I moved down here.

BUT, if your boat ain't made of whale bone and driftwood covered with seal skin and you ain't paddlin with a long skinny stick, then you need to be careful about the term "purist". And don't forget, those boats were made for fishing! (ok, hunting but you know what I mean)

 That "purist" attitude was one of the main reason's I couldn't find anybody to fish with when I got to PDX in 2001. Tons of kayakers and gigatons of fisherman and everybody looked at me like I had three heads when I said lets go fishing from a sit on top. Paddlers were like "SOT? Fish?" and the fishermen were like "you have got to be crazy talking about fishing from a pool toy*". Bad enough I had come from that state just to the south.

That was ok though. I just smiled and waved when they passed me on the water and went home and cleaned fish. Sometimes it takes a minute for folk to adjust their paradigm and I'm glad some folk have caught on ( $5/gas didn't hurt much either)

 But one of the really nice things about being a relatively new(ish) sport, is that it's flexible and receptive and,,,impure and has not developed quite so much "tradition" that it rates having "purist". Although people will try (you should see the looks I get when I paddle up in my inflatable) There is room for boats with sterns that split-open so you can stand up or pedals or sails! (Ok, even I draw the line at motors)

 It's not that anybody in a "upwc" shouldn't have to develop (learn) a good set of paddle skills. but they shouldn't have to suffer the stinkeye and/or condescension because they can't play in rock gardens and tidal races
(or they realize that pedals work better than paddles to fish with )


Ok, ok  rant mode disengaged.







*And BTW, they are not pool toys. They are Caribbean hotel lagoon tourist toys!!

i do paddle a skin on frame with a greenland stick, and a fibreglass sea kayak with a euroblade, and a SOT made of plastic, a whitewater boat made of plastic etc.

what i meant by "purist" was really meant to say "i don't give the stink eye to anybody" ie not elitist, but a kayak is a kayak, a pedal boat a pedal boat, a sail boat is a sail boat, a dragon boat is a dragon boat, a canoe is a canoe etc. Maybe "traditionalist" is a better choice of words.

kayak–noun 1. an Eskimo canoe with a skin cover on a light framework, made watertight by flexible closure around the waist of the occupant and propelled with a double-bladed paddle.
2. a small boat resembling this, made commercially of a variety of materials and used in sports.

i get the stink eye from the power boaters all the time. I've even had a few try and scare me out of the trolling lanes by attempting to swamp me..but they can't ..most of the time people look at me like I'm an alien from outerspace.

i think anybody doing any kind of physical activity is a good thing.

i don't care if you paddle a sea kayak on a pond, big water doesn't make it kayaking, but a double bladed paddle does.

all I'm saying is lets keep kayaking kayaking, sailing sailing, pedal boating pedal boating, and not confuse them all together.

on that note, i guess honestly i really don't care what anybody does with whatever boat. i think i get frustrated talking about this stuff all day every day at the shop.

people who have never sat in a kayak come in every day and want to argue about this stuff. I'm not sure why I've decided to think outloud on this forum, because my standard reply at the shop is not to argue, but to say "that's great, let me know how that works out for you. make sure you where a helmet!"

I'm stepping out of this one. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, just trying to share what I've learned!

PS- you NWKA's don't let people get away with sh*t, do you? I like it allot! I really don't want to offend anyone, but I get all excited talking/debating/arguing about kayak stuff!

also- we got that hd video camera, and I have plans to film on monday...rolling, bracing, & applying some good strokes on the t15.

Jason, you had made a comment about the Scupper being "about the same amount of waisted (sic) effort to push that thing around as the t-15".  I gotta say, the SP had more to it.  Length and max width aren't everything.  I find the P15 more "sporty" than the T15.  And the SP more "sporty" than the P15, but the SP doesn't fit me well.

And don't worry ... you're not offending anyone here.  We're really a pretty laid back group that like to give each other a bad time every now and then.  And we suck up knowledge like you wouldn't believe, but not blindly sucking it up, we'll ask questions time and time again until it makes sense (or not!).

-Allen

hmmm- by sporty do you mean responsive? because, yes, a touch more rocker will make it quicker to respond to turning, but generally more rocker means a slower ride.

i'm reffering more to glide than anything. in a boat less than 14 ft, there isn't much glide. the longer and skinnier the boat, the more glide you get.

what i mean by glide is, if you take several strokes and stop, a long boat will continue to move forward, and a short boat will stop. this translates into how much work it takes to keep that sucker moving.

Sporty to me is a combination of things.  But in this case I'm talking about the effort needed to get it up to speed, which is similar to the effort needed to slow it down (glide).

Look at the top views of these T15 and the SP.





The T15's width (29") extends further towards the bow and stern.   The SP's 26" of width is concentrated near the front of the cockpit but gets narrower much faster than the T15.  I believe that shape makes it sportier and less of a wasted effort than the T15.

-Allen

BTW, also look at the bow and stern shape of the SP.  I wouldn't be surprised if the length at the waterline was similar to the T15.

-Allen

laid back group that like to give each other a bad time every now and then.  And we suck up knowledge like you wouldn't believe, but not blindly sucking it up, we'll ask questions time and time again until it makes sense (or not!).

-Allen

yup, that's what i like.

i see what you mean. Sweed form vs. fish form, and flare. if i recall, the sp didn't have that huge, wide keel and the flat flare by the seating area that the t15 does. it looks more like a traditional kayak hull design.

i did like that sp i paddled many moons ago. i'll have to give it another go.

don't get me wrong, i really like my t15, but i really don't like paddling it, or anyother boat for that matter up river against the tide. it's a pain to fish from the sea kayak, but it's allot easier to paddle against the flow.

i probably would have been sucked out to sea in the t15 paddling back up the nestucca against 4-5 knots of current, but i could make progress against it in the sea kayak. i don't even think i can get the t15 up to 5 knots in a sprint. i'm going to have to bust out the gps and see how fast i can get that thing moving without having a heart attack.

really, what it comes down to, is i need more boats! one for every variable in conditions. i just have to get the girlfriends approval

i do paddle a skin on frame with a greenland stick, and a fibreglass sea kayak with a euroblade, and a SOT made of plastic, a whitewater boat made of plastic etc.

Alright then,
Is it a driftwood and whale bone frame and it is covered with baby seal skin that you personally clubbed? (yeah, I know I'm mixing metaphors) Well, is it?
Yeah, I thought not!
(ok, you qualify as a certified kayaker who fishes)

I just don't think we should draw such hard lines between boat types. (seems I read somewhere that some canoes have double ended paddles)
The Hobie (Adventure, at least) really blurs the "line" between paddle and pedal (and it sails pretty good too) and thoroughly confuses the 2 (3!) with some aplomb. When you pull the drive and paddle it, it does not stop as soon as you do and I was tickled just last week when the thing pointed up a bit while I was drifting in 20 mph gusts (with no sail!).

I don't know. I just don't want yall to kick me (and Z, and CBY,,,,) off the northwestKAYAKanglers board and send us to the NWPBA board.
(Those NWPaddleBoatA guys are a real bunch of elitist dipwads who never give up any good fishing spots)

BTW Thanks Allen and Jason for trying to elevate the content of this rapidly declining thread. It was really nice to see an intelligent comparison of those two hulls.

I look forward to getting a paddle lesson from you around New Year's J. (Gotta paddle cause I finally got the Big A to Florida)

The T15's width (29") extends further towards the bow and stern.   The SP's 26" of width is concentrated near the front of the cockpit but gets narrower much faster than the T15.  I believe that shape makes it sportier and less of a wasted effort than the T15.

-Allen

which was the point i was trying to weakly make. [ thank you , allen ]

 looking at those 2 and their listed dimensions, is the reason i suggested jason check into the SP. since he's indicated he's more at home in the narrower boats, i thought the SP might be a better fit.. i admit i know little about glide and performance, but until he'd reiterated it, i'd forgotten the length ratio figured in there as well.

jason, stick around, young'un.. this is a good, spirited debate, a bit off it's original intent,  so far it's been reasonably respectable, but eventually someone will end up wearing the asshat for going over the unwritten limits.. i can understand you being a bit tired of seeing/reading/hearing the same stuff you get in the shop every day though.. that has to get old really quick.

really, what it comes down to, is i need more boats! one for every variable in conditions. i just have to get the girlfriends approval

yep, dont we all...guess thats part of a fish yakkers basic wants and needs list..

good luck with that camera this coming week... hopefully you'll be able to share a bit some time later..

"I don't know. I just don't want yall to kick me (and Z, and CBY,,,,) off the northwestKAYAKanglers board and send us to the NWPBA board."

Oh man I almost wet my pants! That is hilarious.

and yes. Endangered baby albino seal skin.

It was a fun forum.

-Jason

really, what it comes down to, is i need more boats! one for every variable in conditions. i just have to get the girlfriends approval

I've got a Cobra XL for sale...

Jason, would love to see a video of you doing a single stroke, 180 degree turn on a T15.   

-Allen

http://www.kayakangler.blogspot.com