Interesting exchange on another board regarding wavewalk kayak marketing

Widgeonmangh - I totally appreciate your input to this conversation.  As a dealer you have been a very solid
addition to NWKA and family.  No issue there.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not at all putting down the design or quality of the Wavewalk, merely addressing the comments/opinions clearly written by whomever in the Wavewalk circle and linked in Rudy's original post.  I strikes a nerve worth noting. 

Clearly you don't share all of these "scientific" explanations between the traditional kayak, vs the pedal powered kayaks, vs not much specifically mentioned regarding the Wavewalk.  Can you see where Rudy and I (and others) are coming from? 

Also, it's not so much about "winning on the internet", rather it's "show and tell" to give actual perspective.   
As you know, there are loads and loads of professional and even more amateur videos uploaded to the intertube showing the speed, balance, hands free fishing, surf launches, self recovery, huge fish caught, open ocean adventures, adverse conditions, etc.. of Hobies as well as traditional fishing kayaks.  Wavewalk has been around long enough now that many of these same attributes should have been documented by now for the world to see and use for comparison shopping, envy, whatever. 

The given visuals on the intertube clearly don't equal the opinions/comments given in the article in question here.  Your input is valuable whether it supports it or goes completely against it. 

Widgeonmangh, thank you again for contributing to this conversation. 

Widgeonmangh, thanks for joining the thread! I think it would be awesome to see an honest, disinterested third party compare a Wave Walk to a Hobie Mirage Drive and paddle style boat. I'm sure there are things that the Wave Walk does well, you have mentioned some of them. My first contact with the Wave Walk was to check out their website, and it was a real turn-off for me to read a bunch of non-specific claims that WW is basically the best at EVERYTHING.  Nothing is the best at everything, that's just not how the world works.

I am pretty aware of brand cultures, and who/what I might be advertising for if I use a product. The first thing I do when I put my 9' inflatable pontoon boat together on the river is cover the huge brand logos on the tubes up with duct tape. The tubes are very well made, the frame design kind of sucked and took a bit of modification to fit me. The way the owner of the brand markets his stuff is again reminiscent of Rick Travis and his Snake Oil, really off-putting to me.  The only reason I own that boat is that I got a good deal on it used, the owner of the company had already made his money on it and wouldn't be getting mine.

Widgeonmangh - I totally appreciate your input to this conversation.  As a dealer you have been a very solid
addition to NWKA and family.  No issue there.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not at all putting down the design or quality of the Wavewalk, merely addressing the comments/opinions clearly written by whomever in the Wavewalk circle and linked in Rudy's original post.  I strikes a nerve worth noting. 

Clearly you don't share all of these "scientific" explanations between the traditional kayak, vs the pedal powered kayaks, vs not much specifically mentioned regarding the Wavewalk.  Can you see where Rudy and I (and others) are coming from? 

Also, it's not so much about "winning on the internet", rather it's "show and tell" to give actual perspective.   
As you know, there are loads and loads of professional and even more amateur videos uploaded to the intertube showing the speed, balance, hands free fishing, surf launches, self recovery, huge fish caught, open ocean adventures, adverse conditions, etc.. of Hobies as well as traditional fishing kayaks.  Wavewalk has been around long enough now that many of these same attributes should have been documented by now for the world to see and use for comparison shopping, envy, whatever. 

The given visuals on the intertube clearly don't equal the opinions/comments given in the article in question here.  Your input is valuable whether it supports it or goes completely against it. 

Widgeonmangh, thank you again for contributing to this conversation. 

+1  Exactly what Insayn said.  I am glad you chimed in Widgeonmangh.  After passively aggressively blasting the guy, I did search these forums and saw your posts.  Your posts are actual experience with reports and photos to prove it.  It goes a long ways into promoting the wavewalk.  Actual use and show and tell. 

But a quick search of the wavewalk shows this trolling frany BS type of marketing is fairly widespread by the wave walk folks.  they troll forums trying to pass off science as reality.  It's  absolutely ridiculous.  And there is no doubt in my mind that it is a coordinated and planned effort by these folks. That might have worked in the past, but they really lost respect from me and unfortunately for them my passion is getting new kayak anglers on the water so they didn't send that message to one person...they sent it to everyone i communicate with... 

To be honest, I would think the dealers should be the most offended by such tactics as it MUST cut into sales.  Sure you gain a few folks that might get suckered by such an article but for anyone that has any kayaking experience, the statements they make and their ridiculous argumentative style, just makes them a laughing stock on the internet. 

People may have different opinions and that is fine.  But for wave walk and their representative to try and pass off that ridiculous article as scientific just makes them and frankly anyone caught with one seem ridiculous...in my opinion.... And that's a bummer since even though it may be the perfect kayak for a particular situation.  I think for stand up fishing in calm waters and things like bowfishing, it just may be the cat's meow. 

I am sure it didn't seem like it, but like i said at the end of the post, I am trying to help here by pointing out how ridiculous at least from one person's point of view how ridiculous the wave walk team sounds. 

And hey crash...I'll put up a thousand dollars too.  I said I would drop it, but if he resurrects it, I will make the challenge.  I doubt it, he can't even post up pictures except the stock stuff on their website. 

Thanks all, I am glad I have been a good addition to NWKA, and I appreciate the kind words and this great site.

I understand the sentiment and feel that people are responding to regarding the article.  It certainly is unambiguous about its advocacy and perspective. It speaks for itself, so if you disagree with opinions and style of the article, I get it. There is no intention to be deceptive or give false advertising.  The author of the article would stand behind every word.  It would be his perspective and not everyone would share it, but he would defend it.  The Wavewalk blog is a blog of Wavewalk owners and the owner/creator of the boat/company, so I really wouldn't expect any other perspective there!  I don't think I would be as sexy cool as Matthew McConaughey in a Lincoln either, but I bet the CEO of Lincoln might beg to differ! 

I agree with you that the most important thing is "show and tell" and actual experience.  Wavewalk is a tiny company compared to Hobie, so they don't sponsor pro staff to go shoot videos of them catching stuff or sponsoring TV shows. I hope to be able to volunteer some boats for a HOTW event sometime and even possibly get in on a fishing tourney as well.  Scheduling has not been my friend yet, but I will get there. 

I am happy to proudly throw my hat in the ring if someone is looking for a boat, and I think the Wavewalk is a great boat.  It paddles great and I wish I had turned on the video of some of the stuff I have had it in. Especially coming home from duck hunts on the Nisqually, in the dark,  loaded down with deeks, in a North wind with an outgoing tide. Yeehaaa. However, I was very comfortable and safe.  Like I say it is a solid kayak and I will keep posting my experiences with it so you and others can judge for yourselves.  You will see more as the years go by and as more avid fishermen give them a try and as those same fishermen begin to push into taking it into more places and discovering the strengths and limitations of the boat. 
Hopefully I can help create a little different impression of Wavewalk.

~ Enjoy

There is no intention to be deceptive or give false advertising. 

+1 on your thoughts and I look forward to seeing other great posts. Thanks.

However, the sentence I quote here...I am 100% in disagreement.  It borderlines on false advertising (only because they purposely set up the article to avoid mentioning the wavewalk directly in their comparisons with their silly disclaimers yet the implications is quite loud and clear) and most certainly deceptive. But as you correctly pointed out, its simply my opinion.  Wouldn't surprise me if they hit me up with some lawsuit for libel or slander or other childish method like downvoting my videos or trolling all my other posts. 

It'd go a long ways for their sales and their reputation if they had you as their marketing guy instead of these trolls.  My advice to you would be set up your own website if you haven't already.  Their stuff is a joke...once again my opinion only. 

I understand the sentiment and feel that people are responding to regarding the article.  It certainly is unambiguous about its advocacy and perspective. It speaks for itself, so if you disagree with opinions and style of the article, I get it. There is no intention to be deceptive or give false advertising.

I don't think you can spin it like that though.  The article in question presents itself in style as a researched academic paper.  It is nothing of the sort.  That creates ambiguity.  It doesn't purport to speak for itself at all.  It comes off as an attempt at neutral and authoritative, but is in reality a puff piece.

I've seen this kind of thing time and again in mlm companies.  It turns most people off, but at the same time it gains some rabid adherents.  Amway, soap, juice parties, and that sort of thing all make these claims of superiority cloaked in a seemingly neutral and authoritative paper.  There is a playbook, and its been followed here.

I get that you aren't going to throw your company under the bus, and you shouldn't - that isn't a good look.  But what is going on is pretty dang clear and can't be spun a different way without looking at least a little silly.

As for everything else you have contributed to this thread, its really awesome of you to  represent the product in a rational and wholly appropriate manner.  If the rest of the company's marketing team took your approach the entire company would be much better for it.

"In three  years the only time I tipped one over was on purpose at a swimming beach. Something I highly recommend in any kayak."

When you did your huli, what how was the recovery? Any issues flipping it back over and re-entering the WW?

From what I've seen it looks like a pretty cool yak. I enjoy paddling my little OK Tetra 12 and use it more than any of my others (including my Hobie Tandem Island). As for "hands free", yesterday I spent 1/2 hour being towed around in the Tetra by a sturgeon and never reached for my paddle. Of course, if there'd been snags and other hazards around I wouldn't have had that luxury. My three fishing companions were in Hobies and all used their Mirage Drives to pull their fish to open water for the fight. I quite enjoy the slay rides.

I have only tried it so far in the W500.  The W700 gets its test this summer. In general, it behaves like a sit inside kayak (without a skirt). The boats are not designed for solo self recovery.  Most of the time you would fall out of it rather than capsize it.  If you do that you can get back in.  If you do capsize it you will be hard pressed to get it right (one hull will be empty and one will be filled when you try and turn it over) and get back in it.  With a partner you can do it.  With added floatation you can solve the problem and would be able to accomplish it.    The W700 has built in flotation so I am looking forward to seeing what the implications are for self recovery. The W700 may be a boat that will be able to handle big blue, but  I have not yet tested it. 

Understanding the limitations of your boat and its applications due to those limitations is really important. It is equally important to know your own limitations.  I know for a fact that there are those with kayaks that can self recover, but the people I have see paddling them probably wouldn't be able to pull it off.  Kayaks are one of the unique boats where self recovery is even possible.  But making it possible also inherently makes it necessary.  Turns out that if you don't tip it over, self recovery isn't needed!  Every boat has its strengths and weaknesses, and self recovery in the unlikely event of a capsize is currently a weakness of the W500 that has kept it out of the Pacific for me.  The W700 may have solved that , we will see.

In the link below it goes into great depth of how stability is measured and mannered withing the design. 
I don't disagree with the fact the Wavewalk has incredible "primary" stability and will be a great platform for stand up fishing/paddling, but how do they address the "secondary" stability?   I don't see anything represented anywhere about it.

http://wavewalk.com/blog/fishing-kayak-stability/

Secondary stability really shines in the surf zone when coming in sideways, as well as taking on a large wake or white cap directly from the side like being caught in rough seas, or even a windy lake or river.  Many of the most popular fishing kayaks (pedal or paddle) have less primary stability than the really wide ones do including the WW, but more than make up for it with secondary stability where it really counts in rough conditions.   With a misrepresented notion that a tippy feeling kayak is unstable is generally untrue.  Just like riding a bicycle, most beginners start with training wheels to gain the confidence of the primary stability without the tippy feeling, and sooner or later find their balance and no longer need the training wheels.  At this point, the secondary stability comes into play and now this rider has full range of motion and control of the bike in various conditions beyond the flat asphalt.   


Nearly all of the provided videos that are produced for/by WW show them jumping up and down which clearly demonstrate some of the great primary stability attributes it has designed into it.  However, we have yet to see a video of them leaning over until it nearly dumps or actually does dump the occupant showing it's secondary stability. Followed by self rescue or group rescue at that.  One thing that gets my attention is that all the videos have comments locked out so there is no way to have a two way conversation to ask questions and get answers.

What your point, you ask? 

Being designed as the "world’s most stable kayak for fishing and paddling" certainly needs more merit to hold that title.   It is like a 2 directional title.  Up/Down and going in circles.  Then there is tilt, severe tilt, and holy crap tilt, followed by swimming.  How much lean does the WW have before you are swimming? 

This point I make goes along the lines of misinformed advertising without representation that could get someone into trouble. 

Come test drive it and see is the best way to answer the question.  That is what I am here for.    That is also why a good dealer will tell a potential costumer all that they want to know.  I don't pull punches and let people know exactly what the boat is great for or not.  I will have to make some videos this summer of how far I can lean over before it tips over.  I thought the owner standing in just one of the hulls of the W700 and paddling around was a pretty good indication.   

As far as the comments being locked out on the videos, yeah they are locked out. People make all kinds of comments for all kinds of reasons. For instance, some folks are dealers of other brands that are just trying to slam a product, having never actually been in it.  The world wide web is a wild and wooly place. I lock out comments on all of my videos as a matter of practice.  If you want a two way conversation, then give me a call or write and email, love to have it.

Good luck out there. 

Seems ironic that blocking comments on YouTube could be to avoid other brands from slamming the product. What is good for goose is good for the gander, no? 

I know you are doing your best to help get this product into the hands of the people that can benefit from the design, I only wished the manufacture's advertisements and articles matched your honest approach. 

Great discussion.  I saw the blog link posted a few years back on another site and I laughed at it then. I am surprised it is still being used.

In my personal experience, I believe the reason the Hobie is so popular here in the Pacific NW is for a good part of the year the fishery is a trolling fishery. When, you combine that with the facts that we have some of the best craft brews in the world and very strong river and tidal currents, you quickly realize the Hobie may be the best tool for fishing the NW waters.  Trolling against the mighty Columbia's current (or other rivers and bays) and drinking beer becomes more complicated if you have to take those pesky paddle strokes.

Ah shit .....
An argument happened on the internet and I wasn't part of it.

If it wasn't for a visit to the local taco truck resulting in my fourth trip to the crapper tonight I might have missed this riveting discussion all together.
Thank god for surfing fishing forums while taking a dump!

My day is complete =)

Ah shit .....
An argument happened on the internet and I wasn't part of it.

If it wasn't for a visit to the local taco truck resulting in my fourth trip to the crapper tonight I might have missed this riveting discussion all together.
Thank god for surfing fishing forums while taking a dump!

My day is complete =)

T.M.I.

Ah shit .....
An argument happened on the internet and I wasn't part of it.

If it wasn't for a visit to the local taco truck resulting in my fourth trip to the crapper tonight I might have missed this riveting discussion all together.
Thank god for surfing fishing forums while taking a dump!

My day is complete =)

T.M.I.

It's not like I was describing whether the chunks of corn were full digested or not ...
And don't pretend that you are some holy saint-like person that doesn't view time on the can as valuable quiet minutes to update your favorite forums ...