Knot Strength, part 1

Great stuff... was there an improved clinch knot test in the works?

Excellent work KT. Thanks for the info and pics. I will study up on that trilene knot. I really like how it goes around the lure/hook eye twice. I've had a few knots break right there when using a uni. So what inspired you to get down to your myth-busting about which knot works best?

Z

Wow, that's really disappointing results with the Palomar!
I use it exclusively with braid to hardware and I still have faith in it for that, but I was hoping it would do the same with mono because its so easy to tie.

Thank you for your work.  Seems like the best combo for ease and strength is the Palomar knot, I can deal with that!

-Jesse

from another site, on the improved clinch:

Uses:  The Clinch knot provides one good method of securing fishing line to a hook, lure, or swivel. The "improved" version used here includes an extra tuck under the final turn, shown at step 8. It is commonly used to fasten the leader to the fly. It is not recommended if you are using over 12lb test line.

   Here's my data, first with 5 wraps:

1.line broke 7#
2. knot broke 6.5#
3. knot broke 6#
4. knot broke 8.5#
5. knot broke 9.5#

then with 6 wraps

1. knot broke 7.5#
2. knot broke 6#
3. knot broke 7.5#
4. line at knot broke 9#
5. knot broke 8.5#

  I got into this, Bryce, because of mention of the uniknot on another thread, and remembered how much I used to like the uniknot ,also called the Duncan loop knot, after Norm Duncan, who says this about his knot:


This knot has many possible applications, however it is limited by the low knot strength. In some types or brands of mono the knot strength may be as low as fifty percent depending on how well the knot is tied. If the leader strength is close to the line strength you may want to experiment with the intended application by testing as many of the various sizes, brands and number of turns combinations you expect to use. This can be accomplished by tying the knots then using a line testing machine or just weighing a bucket of water when each different knot combination breaks and recording the results. The best applications that I found for this knot are; it is the easiest knot to tie in very heavy mono, heavy mono or steelon tippet to the fly, loop on fly tippets, mono leader to live bait hooks or trolling lure, the knot can replace metal crimped sleeves.


   I like the knot strength of the trilene knot, consistently gives about 110 percent when it breaks versus about 90# for the Palomar. But the Palomar can be tied in a flash!!! Results may be different with a harder line, like Maxima or Ande.  Anybody game to do some more testing???

Ok after reading all the knot reviews and what not i did a little looking around....just curious does anybody use this knot? 

http://www.netknots.com/html/eye_crosser_knot.html

the description says stronger than the clinch or the uni but equal to palomar which your results show palomar as bad right?  might be worth a test.

im trying to remember the knot we used when i was younger...my dad taught it to me and we didn't have any trouble with it and i always found it easy to tie...but i can't remember...maybe he does lol

i know it had a loop that you had to put the hook through but i don't remember it being like the palomar

me and my buddies always used the improved clinch not for shark fishing and didn't have too much trouble

ive never had much luck with joining leader to braid so i don't use braid often lol

Well, Yessno-----that's a VERY interesting knot!  tied 5, here's the results:

1. Line broke 10.5#
2. Line broke 10.5#
3. line broke 9.5#
4. line broke 11#
5. line broke 10#

   That's a 100% knot, with no breaks at the knot!  Better performance than any of the other knots I tested--clinch and improved clinch, Palomar and Uni knot. Only the Trilene knot comes close.  Downside----it's an eye-crosser, with 10# line it's a little fussy to tie.  I plan to tie a few in 15 or 10# and see if it's easier to handle with stiffer line.  If so, I;ve got a new knot for tying line to swivel and line to lure.

Check me on this ... but isn't that a 2 turn uni knot, but going through the eye twice first?

-Allen

Check me on this ... but isn't that a 2 turn uni knot, but going through the eye twice first?

-Allen

Yes, looks like a hybrid between the uni knot and the trilene knot. I'll have to try it out.

Great thread, by the way.
I use the Trilene knot for tying to swivels, trolling rudders, etc and sometimes for very large dumbell eye weighted flies, where inhibiting the action is not a concern. Its a good strong knot, and easy for me to tie.Lube it well before tightening, and "lock" it up snug, and it shouldn't fail you. I have had it slip and fail on occasion by not "locking" it down tight before deploying it.
But I am going to try that eye crosser knot for sure. Looks easy to tie. Hope I don't get cross-eyed tying it!

I have been using improved clinches to tie on flies on my lighter diameter leaders, but I have to learn a less bulky knot for small dry flies. There are a couple I have tried, but I don't have any links or instructions handy. One of them is called the "orvis knot."

I sometimes use the "non-slip mono loop" for streamer flies, as it lets the fly wiggle a bit and get more action when stripping. This knot can be found on the same site as the eye-crosser knot, that yessnoo linked to. It is a plenty strong knot. Took me a lot of practice to get it down so I could remember how to tie it out on the water, though.

One thing I have found, when adding tippet to the end of a tapered leader (fly fishing) using a double uni knot, is that using a stronger knot at the fly results in breakoffs at the tippet-leader connection instead of at the fly. Since I hate tying blood knots (stronger) and use the double uni knot (weaker) to join tippet to leader, I often use the improved clinch at the fly, as it isn't any stronger than the double uni.  Otherwise, I end up tying on tippet every time I break off. Not necessarily a bad thing (putting on fresh tippet), but can be a minor time-waster/inconvenience.

I don't fish with braid (would need to learn some new knots?), and I only use flourocarbon when I need a fast sinking leader, like when nymphing or steelhead fishing.  Maxima Ultragreen ties good knots, but it doesn't cast as well as other lines. I use it for leader material a lot in the 6# test to 12# test range, but there is stuff out there that is stronger for the same diameter. I use it mainly out of habit and the fact that I am familiar with it, as well as its near universal availability.

One thing, before tightening any knot using mono, lubricate it, with saliva. Otherwise you might get a friction burn in the knot, weakening it considerably.

when i saw it i tried tying it with 30 pound trilene mono onto a 9/0 hook...its not too bad with thick line (haven't tried it with smaller line yet though lol)

but with those kinda test results i will be practicin up...its alot harder to tie than the improved clinch i ussually tie but it looks worth it

theres alot of 3rd hand action required

its really hard to get the 2nd loop to sit where u want it...u have to keep tension on the tag end the entire time u pull the knot tight with the mainline to get the loops to sit right...i use my mouth for that it works pretty good but u gotta pull it tight slow

ok with a little more practice this time with 14 pound trilene i found it easier and easier to tie...just making the loop for all the wraps to go into is the hard part...seems easier to tie with 14 pound test than 30 pound...or at least easier to get it pulled tight correctly...

the knot can and will loosen the 2 loops through the hookeye but the actual knot part seems to stay intact no matter how much i pick at it...as long as there is tension on it then it tightens back up like a slip knot

hopefully this won't cause problems with it

it seems like if u went went through the second loop that goes through the eye at some point in the knot then it would keep the knot from being a slip knot but would probably sacrifice strength...im no engineer so

actually after thinking about it if i tightened the tag end with pliers instead of my mouth it probably wouldn't slip
but for practice sake and the lack of pliers in the immediate area i haven't tried that yet

THe "eye-crosser" is not a 2-turn Uni-knot.  The loops with a UNi start at the hook end, with the eye-crosser the loops start up the line and go down toward the hook.
    I tied a few of these this weekend, it gets easier with practice,  it is really a strong knot! 

THe "eye-crosser" is not a 2-turn Uni-knot.  The loops with a UNi start at the hook end, with the eye-crosser the loops start up the line and go down toward the hook.
    I tied a few of these this weekend, it gets easier with practice,  it is really a strong knot! 

It looks to me like the loops starts at the hook end and goes up the line.

-Allen

my bad----you're ezzackly right!!!  It must be that twice thru the eye of the hook greatly increases the strength, as only two wraps seems perfectly adequate.

Or did you tie it the other way for your testing and invent a new knot?

-Allen