What paddle do you use?

BTW, most high angle touring paddles are really sort of mid-angle, at least compared to whitewater paddles where you have a near vertical paddling style (really high angle).

-Allen

True about White Water kayakers, but then, they generally lean much more than rec and touring yakkers do...  Have to dig in to turn so sharp and avoid rocks...

YotF

couple notes as the caffeine kicks in...

vertical means two things
1. how straight up and down the paddle is to the water as viewed when the paddler is coming toward you.
2. how straight up and down the paddle stays going trough the pull part of the stroke (viewed from the side)

For max power, the goal is to keep the blade vertical as it passes through the water. At is angles forward, back, or sideways, it loses power. The most efficient stroke would be to place the paddle between your feet and pull straight back to your groin, but your boat's in the way. So to keep the paddle going in the water around your toes & coming out by your waist, you reach out to the side and angle the paddle. The more you tilt the paddle off vertical, the lower your angle is considered to be. In a nutshell, and higher stroke offers more power, but with a greater energy expenditure while lower angles deliver less power, but requires less energy exertion. Lower angles also tends to add a turning element to your stroke.

In a touring boat, I can get the same high-angler as whitewater, but it's hard to keep that energy expenditure for long. In most rec boats or sots, it's hard to go vertical at all without a lot of upper body reach and twist, so an angled stroke happens by default. Lower angle strokes trade power, but require a lot less energy to maintain, making them for efficient for covering distance. Proper technique still allows a good power/energy tradeoff, as does a better designed blade to match the entry angle:



The second part of verticality is keeping the blade straight up and down while in water, regardless of insertion angle. Any tilt or angle causes it to lose power. This is again where technique plays a huge part, so you're getting the most bang for your buck. Paddle design also play a part by helping water flowing smoothly over the paddle and reducing twist.

That's the pic I was looking for.  Thanks.



Choose a paddle that when you stroke, the end of your paddle blade is parallel to the water.  If you have that, the paddle was designed to meet your paddle angle (whether you call it high, medium, or low).   

-Allen

Thanks, all. Lots of info to sort through. I've never paddled anything a day in my life, except a bicycle a couple of times.   

See you on the water. Well, you probably won't see me as my boat will be camoflauged.

I'd agree with Allen on this. Paddle technique lessons are invaluable for efficiency in paddling and boat control. However, a well-built & properly designed paddle versus a paddle with excessive flex and/or poor blade design makes a huge difference as well. With that said, I don't necessarily recommend buying a top-end paddle right off the bat, especially if costs are an issue. A mid-range paddle such as the AT straight shaft Tour, Werner Cascadia, Bending Branches Slice/Slice Plus, Carlisle Enchantment, etc are great value for the money, then become a backup/spare/girlfriend/kid paddle if and when you upgrade.

I agree. You are looking at $130-150 min. for a decent paddle. I think werner fiberglass is the way to go. they are around $250, and will last the rest of your life, even if you use it as an anchor or to dig clams.....I do

good equipment means nothing without good technique. Technique is more important, but the equipment makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

aluminum shafts are to be avoided at all cost.

Look into White lightning paddles! I have used my for 3 year's now and will never switch. It is light weight, comes apart for transport, and built strong. I think they still make them. They are made in the northwest.

Lightning paddles are/were great, but I'm pretty sure the company went out of business.

I bought a $6 cedar 2X4 and made this. Nice and light.
You can paddle forever,but doesn't work well in the shallow water.  Unless you like poling.

Also, after Jself's wonderful costumer service while purchasing a new drysuit at Alder Creek yesterday, I highly recommend going there.  Also, you get 20% off on your birthday.  Thanks again Jason.

--Craig

Nice Craig. This is really the only way to get a high quality paddle for little money...make it yourself. It doesn't have to be greenland either.

Thanks for the kind words Craig!

CBY - this looks like a good deal. Z - how tough are the carbons compared to fiberglass?

Carbon is like steel and won't flex at all like fiberglass does. Personally, I like the flex. Spot pointed out it has something to do with a surfing background since surfboards flex and snap back.. just like I like my paddles. So the carbon one has to go.

Z

Werner fiberglass has zero flex, and is less than two ounces heavier than their carbon. The quality of construction is just as important as materials. I've seen some real crappy carbon paddles out there that I wouldn't pay $50 for.

The flex in the blade is called "flutter" which is basically a wobble as you pull the blade through the water. the more wobble or flex, the more energy you expend to resist wobbling.

That being said, if you don't utilize proper technique, flutter doesn't matter as you will waste more energy on your bad technique than than anything.

We always have demo paddles at the shop for sale for much less than retail, and in general I will give a discount if you ask. You can call, shop online, or come in the store.

5 crappy 50 dollar paddles in 5 years cost more than one werner fiberglass ($250) over 20 years.

Paddle size/shape ... does anyone truly think they have a low paddle angle on a SOT?  You're sitting a good 6 inches higher than you would be on a SIK.  It just feel like going to be a high angle no matter what.  jself, your thoughts?

-Allen

It's true the low angle on an SOT is higher than a closed deck, but it's still lower than high angle....the line is blurred here. My high angle stroke is basically vertical. I don't think the seating positions in SOT's is conducive to an efficient forward stroke.

The first time I paddled the Trident, I used a 220cm FG Werner Shuna (mid sized high angle blade in a longer shaft). I felt like I had never paddled a kayak before because of the high seat position etc. That was the first day in history my girlfriend beat me back to the launch.

I think what the low angle paddle is really for in a SOT, is to counter the width and fatigue that comes with pushing an inefficient craft through the water. I like to enjoy the paddle rather than huff and puff, so I'm looking into a 240cm....should allow me to just lazily put the blade in and out of the water without much thought about technique.

I would try a 240cm if you are still in a high position with a 220 or 230.

True, however, the width of most SOT's compensates for the higher center of gravity...

Most SOT's and Rec yaks, require a low angle paddle...  The High angle paddles are for the touring and racing yaks...  Less than 24"  width...  Which are usually paddles in a mid angle style, as the Hign Angle style is best for kayaks in the 18"-20" widths...

YotF

True for the most part, except whitewater kayaks are 25'+ and use high angle paddles with the longest length at 200cm.

While surfing I use a white water paddle at about 194cm because you have to swing the blade around to either side of the stern to brace/rudder on the wave. A longer paddle would mean my blade would catch on the wave face before I could get it around to the stern to brace/rudder, and would probably dislocate my shoulder.

True about White Water kayakers, but then, they generally lean much more than rec and touring yakkers do...  Have to dig in to turn so sharp and avoid rocks...

YotF

Not true. They lean more than YOU do. You guys must not be as lazy as me. I edge with every turn, and generally edge to make minor course correction, as you expend much less energy with a quick edge than a big ass sweep.

couple notes as the caffeine kicks in...

vertical means two things
1. how straight up and down the paddle is to the water as viewed when the paddler is coming toward you.
2. how straight up and down the paddle stays going trough the pull part of the stroke (viewed from the side)

For max power, the goal is to keep the blade vertical as it passes through the water. At is angles forward, back, or sideways, it loses power. The most efficient stroke would be to place the paddle between your feet and pull straight back to your groin, but your boat's in the way. So to keep the paddle going in the water around your toes & coming out by your waist, you reach out to the side and angle the paddle. The more you tilt the paddle off vertical, the lower your angle is considered to be. In a nutshell, and higher stroke offers more power, but with a greater energy expenditure while lower angles deliver less power, but requires less energy exertion. Lower angles also tends to add a turning element to your stroke.

In a touring boat, I can get the same high-angler as whitewater, but it's hard to keep that energy expenditure for long. In most rec boats or sots, it's hard to go vertical at all without a lot of upper body reach and twist, so an angled stroke happens by default. Lower angle strokes trade power, but require a lot less energy to maintain, making them for efficient for covering distance. Proper technique still allows a good power/energy tradeoff, as does a better designed blade to match the entry angle:



The second part of verticality is keeping the blade straight up and down while in water, regardless of insertion angle. Any tilt or angle causes it to lose power. This is again where technique plays a huge part, so you're getting the most bang for your buck. Paddle design also play a part by helping water flowing smoothly over the paddle and reducing twist.

You are correct, except that torso rotation should be used no matter what kind of paddling you are doing. It is the key component to an efficient forward stroke. The rotation spreads the effort out through your whole torso instead of just your little T-rex arms = less fatiguing.

Also if you pump your legs and push on the peg (right peg when right blade enters the water etc) it spreads that energy expenditure out over your whole body, and naturally causes your torso to rotate.

It's all about efficient use of energy, or as I like to call it; laziness.

The flex in the blade is called "flutter" which is basically a wobble as you pull the blade through the water. the more wobble or flex, the more energy you expend to resist wobbling.

That being said, if you don't utilize proper technique, flutter doesn't matter as you will waste more energy on your bad technique than than anything.

I agree that technique is of primary importance.

I don't believe that flex is the major cause of flutter. In fact, flex can be a positive attribute, by reducing (rigid) shock. It can also add a little extra "Kick" to the stroke. Greenland paddle-makers deliberately design flex into their paddles.

Flutter is caused primarily by unequal blade area immersion. If more blade area on one side of the shaft axis is immersed during the power stroke, the shaft will twist towards the small area. That's why, as Allen pointed out, it's important to have a blade shape that matches your paddling style.

Personally, I appreciate the ranges of expertise among out posters. I also enjoy a little trash talking, as long as it doesn't get too many nosers out of joint!

Yes, flex can have a positive attribute AND it can have a negative attribute.  All he cheap paddles I've tried lean to the negative side.

Also, would it surprise you to know that the high end graphite paddle I use has flutter.  But I learned how to paddle it so that it doesn't flutter and I actually think I get more out of the paddle.  What did I do?  I took a page out of paddling with a winged paddle and added a bit of a J-stroke to the end of my stroke which I believe gives me a bit more power when using it.

Lesson learned ... while you can pick a paddle to fit your stroke, you can also adjust your stroke to fit a paddle.

-Allen