Lightweight downrigger weights' performance

The challenges of lake high surface temps driving my targeted quarries deep in the subsea depths below the thermocline has convinced that there are a few times it may be better to go with a downrigger setup than to be dragging 4-8 ounces of trolling lead to reach the targets that are only a few pounds in weight.

My kokanee lake now has fish from 50-75 feet down. Early in the summer they were at 25 feet and easily reachable with a 1 ounce weight.
My Arctic char/Rainbow lake has heated up and now my targets are mostly below 75 feet deep.

Since downrigger fishing from my kayak is not going to be an everyday thing, but more of a solution for challenging (occasional) conditions, I opted to order a Scotty Lake Troll since the mounting system fit all the mount bases I use for my rod holders and fish finder. And the size of the unit is something that I can easily stow in the trunk of the Outback when its not deployed.

The issue is this downrigger is suggested to run <4 pound weight. Meaning, I guess, 3 pounders since there is no inbetween. But I just read one angler was fishing a six pound weight on his Scotty Lake Troll.

SETUP:
I will be running 3 or 4 pound canon ball weights on 50 lb test tuf-line braid. This 0.18mm diameter is equivalent to 6# test mono. Near zero drag.  The cost of losing a weight of this size is really not an issue to replace, i.e. ain't gonna break the bank like my 10 and 12 pounders on the PB would. Up in AK a 3 - 5 pound "sinker" is frequently used for halibut bottom fishing during the huge 30 foot minus tide changes and fishing 200+ FOW on anchor! You don't do very many "bait checks" with that depth and weight. 

What I would like to know from those experienced DR users is the maximum effective depth using a 3 or 4 pound weight and minimal line drag from my small diameter braid.  Will I be able to target fish at 75 feet or deeper in my lakes without a large amount of blow back? I'd like to keep the weight in my fish finder cone so I can match the depth of the fish showing. Kokanee like slow troll so that might be fine even below 75 feet. But Dollies/Arctic char at 75 feet and 2+ mph might push my 3 or 4# weight out of the FF cone and not show on the screen. I also have lake trout that hang out at 100 feet and deeper.

Appreciate any advice and experience you have on keeping "lighter weight" DR weights in the FF cone at fairly deep depths.

My Scotty Lake Troll arrives this Wednesday! Hmm, where to test it out?
~KK~

I have a Scotty Lake Troll on a PA 14. I run a 4lb downrigger ball and have no trouble at 80+ feet. I use a 100lb braid and the blow back is non existent @ 1.2 to 1.6 mph. You will get a little beyond that, but I have never had an issue of it taking the DR weight out of my sonar. The bigger issue is the tracking. Its harder to turn with that much that low but its always manageable.It might be better or worse on a Outback. It can also be quite a long day if they are giving you a lot of short bites at that depth. It can be a work out!  Good luck!

I went with the Scotty Depthking for quicker retrieval, ditched the ss cable, and 80 lb braid for line.  I have a 6 pound ball for >75', otherwise 4 pound. 

The maximum depth at which you can see your downrigger weight on your fish finder depends on (a) the weight of the downrigger weight, (b) the speed at which you are trolling, (c) the amount of drag created by your lure and flasher or dodger, (d) the diameter of your downrigger cable or braided downrigger line, and (e) the diameter or radius of the cone of your sonar signal, which will depend on the way you have your fish finder set up.

The heavier your downrigger weight, the less it will be blown back behind your kayak.  Back when I was using a Scotty Laketroller, I always used a 4 pound weight, which apparently is the maximum size of weight recommended for that downrigger.  Using a smaller weight will degrade the performance of the downrigger, so I recommend using a 4 pound weight with a Laketroller.  I'm currently using a Cannon Lake Troll downrigger with an 8 pound weight, which allows me to troll a lot deeper and/or faster than I could troll with my Scotty Laketroller and a 4 pound weight.

With any combination of downrigger weight, downrigger line, lure/flasher setup, and sonar settings on your fish finder, you can determine the effect of kayak speed by lowering your weight to the depth at which you have been seeing fish (for example, 70 feet), and starting at a very low speed, gradually speed up until the sonar return from your downrigger weight fades out.

A lure with high drag, such as a Flatfish or a Kwikfish, will pull your downrigger weight back and cause it to disappear from your fishfinder at a lower speed and depth than a lure with low drag, such as a Rapala or a wedding ring. Most dodgers have pretty low drag, but some cowbell flashers have quite high drag.  If you want to troll deep with a downrigger, go with a fairly low drag lure and flasher.

Most downriggers come with a metal downrigger cable.  For kayak fishing, there are three disadvantages of metal downrigger cables: (1) In an emergency, such as if you snag your weight on something in current or big swells, it is a lot harder to cut a metal downrigger cable than a braided downrigger line, (2) braided dowrigger lines are thinner than metal downrigger cables and thus have less drag, although it's hard to quantify just how much less drag they have, and (3) metal downrigger cables have a loud and irritating hum, while braided downrigger lines almost never hum.  I always replace metal cables with braided line.  I'm currently using Spectra low-drag 175 pound line.  The  disadvantage of using fairly light braided fishing line, such as the 50 pound line which Klondike Kid is considering, is that it will be more susceptible to breakage from wear, and you are more likely to break the line if you snag your weight on the bottom or slam your downrigger weight into the downrigger's  pulley when raising the weight.  Although I spend a lot of time trolling very close to the bottom for lake trout, I haven't snagged my weight very often, and when I have snagged it I have always been able to turn 180 degrees and pull it off the snag with the help of my 175 pound line.  It is mighty hard to break even 50 pound braided line by pulling on it from a kayak, so if you can't pull your weight off a snag, even with a 50 pound line you will probably have to cut the line at the surface.

When downrigger trolling, you will probably want to set your sonar frequency and the diameter of your sonar cone at a wide angle, so your downrigger weight will remain visible at greater depths, greater speeds, and with higher drag lures, and so you can see suspended fish over a larger area.  And some fish finders seem to do a better job of getting a return from a downrigger weight than other fish finders.

So there isn't any easy answer to the question "How deep can you see your downrigger weight on your fish finder?" That will depend on all of the factors discussed above. But Klondike Kid should definitely be able to see his downrigger weight when trolling down to 75 feet with his rig.

If you don't mind doing a little trigonometry on the water, you can approximate the depth of your presentation if you know how much line you have out. I keep track of this with metered line on my trolling rod, but you could also run metered line on your DR, or you could implement BentRod's calculator counter ().

It's not quite as precise as seeing the ball on your finder, but I think you can approximate the depth of your presentation... The line between your downrigger and the ball is not in a straight line, so you may over estimate a little bit.

I used a Scotty Laketroller in the Puget Sound for years with an 8# weight. I tried lower weights (4, 6#) but the results were always too variable, especially with the 4#, way too much blowback. That may not be an issue in lakes w/o current though. The DR and Scotty mount held up fine. You do have to be careful with the nut tension, and getting the DR line in with a fish on can get a little silly. I was regularly trolling to 90’ depths, and liked the predictability of the 8# weight.

I eventually got an Outback and added a Scotty 1085 for the 2’ turn and brake/clutch, allowing for single-handed retrieval when playing a fish. Also much easier when you have more line out, 80-150’, as getting that laketroller up with that smaller turn radius is a chore. Still using an 8# ball. Always with braid, and I attach the clip to the large snubber swivel clip/swivel, at the top of the snubber.

A couple of things to mention is to keep your down rigger arm "short" ....modify/shorten it so the pulley is just over the side of you kayak to improve tracking.
I quickly discovered that when I installed a Scotty Laketroller + 4# weight towing a 4" quickfish at 50' depth on my 2010 Outback, the tracking was terrible. The standard Hobie rudder was too small so I ordered the sailing rudder and that solved the problem.
In 2012 I upgraded to a 2013 Hobie PA-14 and the same tracking issue surfaced.......I ordered and installed the PA sailing rudder to solve the problem.
Now, the PA's have a tracking skeg and I assume tracking and installing a larger rudder is a non issue.

I posted some suggestions about how to set up a kayak for downrigger trolling at https://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=12575.msg138905#msg138905.  Like Dr. Steelhead Catcher, I discovered that the standard rudder on my Revolution would get overpowered by the drag from my downrigger, particularly in wind, so I replaced it with a sailing rudder, which solved the problem.

When trolling deep in my Lund, the ball generally goes off the cone of the fish finder at trolling speed so I needed a way to easily calculate the depth using the downrigger line counter adjusted by blow back angle.  I keep the below laminated chart and a small brass protractor on the dash to gauge the cable angle to make a quick assessment what depth my ball is running.  An angle of 23 degrees adjusts the depth by 10% while 34 degrees means about a 24% adjustment.  I try to think in percentages to make depth adjustments.  It is not as precise as having the ball show up in the fish finder but helps me keep my downrigger ball approximately at the desired depth.  Both the Scotty 1050 Depthmaster and the 1060 Depthking have counters which the Laketrollers do not but line counter reels also work.  I went with the Depthking for my kayak due to the line counter, 2' per turn retrieve and the brake/clutch.       

When trolling deep in my Lund, the ball generally goes off the cone of the fish finder at trolling speed so I needed a way to easily calculate the depth using the downrigger line counter adjusted by blow back angle.  I keep the below laminated chart and a small brass protractor on the dash to gauge the cable angle to make a quick assessment what depth my ball is running.  An angle of 23 degrees adjusts the depth by 9% while 34 degrees means a 20% adjustment.  I try to think in percentages to make depth adjustments.  It is not as precise as having the ball show up in the fish finder but helps me keep my downrigger ball approximately at the desired depth.  Both the Scotty 1050 Depthmaster and the 1060 Depthking have counters which the Laketrollers do not but line counter reels also work.  I went with the Depthking for my kayak due to the line counter, 2' per turn retrieve and the brake/clutch.     

You can check the accuracy of the line counters on your downrigger and reel by lowering your downrigger weight, with your fishing line in the downrigger release with a lure on, while moving forward very slowly, and comparing the depth of the weight as shown by your fish finder to the readings on your line counters.  You need to keep moving forward a little bit to keep your downrigger weight from spinning and wrapping your fishing line around your downrigger weight line.  Line counters measure rotations of a line spool, and as more fishing or downrigger line goes off a line spool, less line will go out for each turn of the spool, so a line counter may be accurate near the surface but off down deep, or visa versa.

I have a Lake Troll on my Outback with a 3# weight. Only use it for Kokanee so not zipping along. Have never lost it on my finder. I also changed out the wire, but put on Tuf-Line Downrigger Replacement Line. 200# test, 450'. I like it because it is colored every 10 ft which makes dropping it to a consistent depth super easy.  Probably never use it in the ocean just cuz I dont need anymore "stuff" in the water in the event of a whale knocking me out.

I was actually running an 8lb weight this morning for the first time. It could easily be that my legs are just tired, or that it was in my head, but it felt like a lot more than my standard 4lb ball. My DR is spooled w/ 40lb braid... never had any breakoffs w/ it until this morning when I reeled in too hard & far while fighting a fish and broke off just above the snubber. I think I'll probably tie a 5' length of 50lb mono in between my braid and my snubber, both to act as a 'heads up' that the weight is almost in, and to maybe absorb enough energy that I won't pull this in the future.

Anyone added topshot to their DR line before? lol.

I was actually running an 8lb weight this morning for the first time. It could easily be that my legs are just tired, or that it was in my head, but it felt like a lot more than my standard 4lb ball. My DR is spooled w/ 40lb braid... never had any breakoffs w/ it until this morning when I reeled in too hard & far while fighting a fish and broke off just above the snubber. I think I'll probably tie a 5' length of 50lb mono in between my braid and my snubber, both to act as a 'heads up' that the weight is almost in, and to maybe absorb enough energy that I won't pull this in the future.

Anyone added topshot to their DR line before? lol.

I guess your "auto stop" feature wasn't working. 

First of all let me say everyone of you who responded deserves a knuckle bump for your valued contributions. I had searched the forum earlier but found information was scattered in smaller conversations difficult to track down.  You all have provided excellent ideas, suggestions, innovative solutions, and words of wisdom that I'm sure many others besides myself will find helpful too....well into the future.

I have tried to respond after a number of posts but they just kept coming and each one is as deserving of credit as the first ones for its added value. Its great to be on a forum where the "good stuff" is forthcoming so easily from the members!  I've developed a lot of confidence from reading your input that will minimize my trial & error experiences as well as shorten my learning curve knowing ahead of time what to expect.

All my experience with downriggers has been on my Bayliner and Jonboat running 10 lb and 12 lb canonballs on my original circa 1985 Canon Uni-troll 6 DRs. But they are just too big and heavy to deploy on a poly boat.  Back then the entire body was made of cast aluminum with a 1 1/4" diameter aluminum pole. Great one-handed operation for setting and retrieving. Easiest clutch/brake I've encountered on a manual rig.

I hadn't really thought about the steering and navigation aspects of kayak control when you have the weight, cable and fishing tackle drag not to mention adding some current and/or wind factors. And the "work out" when the fish are popping the clip on short strikes and the time and effort involved in retrieval and reset. Not to mention the complication of fighting a fish and attempting to clear the ball and line.  Hmm, I think I'll keep some trolling sinkers in my center compartment....just in case. 

I do want to add a shout out to Kardinal_84 who I picked his brain back in 2016 on getting the basic gear right the first time when I bought my kayak. Turbo Fins, Sailing Rudder, Scotty rod holders and accessories, etc.  Wish you well Rudy.  I had been planning on getting a kayak since I was 13. Only took me 55 years to see that 'dream' come true. No regrets at all. 

I will post my own advice. Pedal-power is one of the best innovations for hands-free fishing from a kayak. But just like running out of gas in your power boat, if your legs give out from cramping up, you are in a bind. I don't consider my paddle as something that will "save the day" when 2 or 3 miles from the launch as I am not training for paddling and under difficult conditions and in an Outback at that, the paddle may not do the job. GATORADE IS MY FRIEND~! I never go out without two full 32 ouncers in the boat. It can eliminate leg cramps in a matter of 20 or 30 minutes and I'm as good as new. They make great pee bottles when empty too. What goes in must come out.

Thanks again y'all.

Sports drinks with their electrolytes is something I take on the water.  During obstacle course races, I carry salt supplement tablets and stick one or two under my tongue if/when cramps develop.  This is the quickest method I have found to relieve muscle cramping along with stretching (which is hard to do in a kayak cockpit).  Not for individual's who have to limit their sodium intake due to medical conditions.