Jackson Coosa

and that is the difference between fisherman who use a kayak and kayakers who fish.

It has nothing to do with that.  Even pure kayakers don't have a single perfect kayak.

-Allen

it has everything to do with that, otherwise they'd want more than just primary.

for pete's sake.

coosa review.

done

so when a redneck in the SE dresses up for church, they don't where fancy boots?

Um, no.

?? I've never seen this either. Saw it lots while living in NM. It's a Different breed east of the Mississippi.

ok I'll give up the cowboy boot thing. more like overalls and bare feet actually i saw that more in cali than anywhere, but I'd like to think there's still some backwoods deliverence dudes running round out there still.

Merry Christmas Every One!
 
Now, kiss and make up or I'm sending this entire thread to the Dog House.
 
Much Love!
-Spot-

no one has yet designed the perfect SOT for fishing the North Pacific. Everything is geared around warm water bass fishing for the most part, or fly fishing trout....most everything is for still water though. Lots of stuff works totally fine, but it's mostly by chance or adaptation by locals.

Really? What do you think is missing?

IMO there's many kayaks from different manufacturers that work great for the PNW. Hobie's Addy and Revo, OK's Trident, and Wilderness Systems Tarpon come to mind.


Z

There isn't much or any secondary stability in Hobies. Doesn't seem to be that much of a problem because primary is so high, but I'd like to see a little more chine. the bow is all sea kayak but the rest of it is pretty flat. I personally prefer more bow rocker than I have seen in any SOT. Other than that, pretty perfect.

And like I said before, you can force most SOT's to work, and work well, but I still don't think they're ideally designed for the North Pacific. I've never been clobbered so hard in the surf than on the tarpon, which I like alot. but man, anything over 3 ft. break is pearl city. Scupper pro had the bow, but not a hard enough keel or chine to hold a line coming in through surf. Trident is great if you're a large person, but a bit of a dock if you aren't.

If you put a coosa bow/rocker and a more distinct chine on the hobies, they'd be perfect. and all this is just my personal opinion of course, and we all know no one is ever going to make the boat I want, bewcause I'm the only one who wants it.

J

I must say  respectfully, that more chine and keel will help you through the surf zone upon return is completely backwards.
 I have pearled and huli'd more than most (I think).
 My scenario is this, I ride a P-13, my buddy has the Drifter. When we leave the beach, I have a much easier time getting through the surf. Upon return, my buddy does better in the drifter. I fully believe that this is because of my heavy keel and chine on the P-13, it has the "punch through" bow which cuts the wave more easily than the wide rockered Drifter. Butt....on the way in, my keel seems to allow the water push me a bit sideways, whereas the drifter allows that force to pass the hull more easily, thus giving him a smoother, straighter ride in.
 My PNW Coastal SOT would have that punch through bow and less keel and chine behind.
 now where did I leave my banjo?

Merry Christmas Every One!
 
Now, kiss and make up or I'm sending this entire thread to the Dog House.
 
Much Love!
-Spot-

Nothing to make up over here.  We can disagree.

-Allen

no one has yet designed the perfect SOT for fishing the North Pacific. Everything is geared around warm water bass fishing for the most part, or fly fishing trout....most everything is for still water though. Lots of stuff works totally fine, but it's mostly by chance or adaptation by locals.

Really? What do you think is missing?

IMO there's many kayaks from different manufacturers that work great for the PNW. Hobie's Addy and Revo, OK's Trident, and Wilderness Systems Tarpon come to mind.


Z

There isn't much or any secondary stability in Hobies. Doesn't seem to be that much of a problem because primary is so high, but I'd like to see a little more chine. the bow is all sea kayak but the rest of it is pretty flat. I personally prefer more bow rocker than I have seen in any SOT. Other than that, pretty perfect.

And like I said before, you can force most SOT's to work, and work well, but I still don't think they're ideally designed for the North Pacific. I've never been clobbered so hard in the surf than on the tarpon, which I like alot. but man, anything over 3 ft. break is pearl city. Scupper pro had the bow, but not a hard enough keel or chine to hold a line coming in through surf. Trident is great if you're a large person, but a bit of a dock if you aren't.

If you put a coosa bow/rocker and a more distinct chine on the hobies, they'd be perfect. and all this is just my personal opinion of course, and we all know no one is ever going to make the boat I want, bewcause I'm the only one who wants it.

J

I must say  respectfully, that more chine and keel will help you through the surf zone upon return is completely backwards.
 I have pearled and huli'd more than most (I think).
 My scenario is this, I ride a P-13, my buddy has the Drifter. When we leave the beach, I have a much easier time getting through the surf. Upon return, my buddy does better in the drifter. I fully believe that this is because of my heavy keel and chine on the P-13, it has the "punch through" bow which cuts the wave more easily than the wide rockered Drifter. Butt....on the way in, my keel seems to allow the water push me a bit sideways, whereas the drifter allows that force to pass the hull more easily, thus giving him a smoother, straighter ride in.
 My PNW Coastal SOT would have that punch through bow and less keel and chine behind.
 now where did I leave my banjo?

Guys, I don't want to debate physics and hydrodynamics. they are laws. it's how hulls work. weather you can make it work or not, that's how it is. I have an answer for every statement question you will ever have about hull design, but I don't want to spend my time arguing what I already know to be true. It's easier for me to wait for you to figure it out on your own....or not.....If yo have a question, I'll answer it, if you have an argument, go read up on the subject and realize I might actually know what I'm talking about. I only do it for a living

Jackson Coosa review complete.

NOOK: I don't doubt that you know your kayak designs, nor do I have any knowledge of hull design to try to lean you one way or another. 
What I am trying to understand in most( if not all) of your statements towards non Pacific Ocean fishing SOT designs, is "What NANOOK feels is the perfect SOT design?"

If you could design the perfect SOT yak for fishing the ocean as well as all other Oregon waters, AND be used for touring equally as well as a SINK touring kayak... what does it have to have, and why? 

Please include whether...
 *This is primarily a fishing kayak for multiple waters, and seconds as a touring kayak.
Or,
 *This is primarily a touring kayak that will be used as a fishing kayak on multiple waters.
Or,
 *This is equally designed kayak for touring and all waters fishing.

What I am getting at here is this... (and let me use car's and trucks as an example as this is something I am very familiar with):
*Cars are generally designed for street applications, fuel economy, comfort, speed, maneuverability, small foot print, etc... Point A to Point B vehicle... Think Honda Accord / touring kayak..
*Trucks are generally designed for towing, hauling, getting off the pavement, stiffer suspension, less fuel economic, larger foot print, etc... Working vehicle... Think Ford 1 ton Crewcab 4x4 / SOT fishing kayak..

Now, you can have things like Chevy El Camino, Chevy Avalanche, Ford Ranchero, Honda Ridgeline, etc.... that are not really car or truck, and don't excel at either task, but will get the job done.

What do you have in mind?

Guys, I don't want to debate physics and hydrodynamics. they are laws. it's how hulls work. weather you can make it work or not, that's how it is.

Which brings up an interesting discussion.  Most kayak anglers have no idea how to "make it work".  Assuming that is true, what would the perfect kayak be for them?

-Allen

What does it really friggin matter? to me it looks like they designed a craft that is adapted specifically for a local target use. which is what boat designers have been doing for centuries any ways.

we can all debate this until the entire world is a marine reserve and the only fish we see are those farmed carcasses laying on crushed ice in a rationed grocery store.

from what I've learned in the few short years I've been doing this, even the original kayaks were all local adaptations of a general design. and i think SOT designers have taken this lesson to heart and just mass market a general hull design that works for the most part for "Everyman".

Bottom lines;

1. use what works for you.

2. the fact that someone always thinks there is room for improvement usually leads to someone daring enough to take the risks, buck the status quo, and design a newer or more targeted craft. 

So, in this case, Jason might not like what he's had to play with because it doesn't fit his functional criteria. Are there any boat designers and investment banker types  among us who are willing to work with him to design that perfect pacific Ocean boat he wants?

I have an answer for every statement question you will ever have about hull design, but I don't want to spend my time arguing what I already know to be true. It's easier for me to wait for you to figure it out on your own....or not.....If yo have a question, I'll answer it, if you have an argument, go read up on the subject and realize I might actually know what I'm talking about. I only do it for a living

What is the prismatic coefficient of the Hobie Adventure.

 
In general I wouldn't want it wider than 24/25 inches to decrease drag/increase the glide. I'd like it to be 15.5 ft in thength to give it enough glide to cover miles with ease but not be a total bohemoth to haul around/break my back. 24-25" beam gives more than enough primary stability for an average size dude.
 
I'd have a bow shape like the T-15 or Hobie with a little finer entry at the keel, but a little more upsweap and rocker in the bow 3-4" or so. to keep from purling/plunging into waves. I'd like a hard chine on the bow to shed water.
 
I'd like a flat hull under the cockpit area, with a medium hard chine or rail in the cockpit area for maneuverability.
 
I'd shift the cockpit area back a bit to weight the stern to increase waterline length and performance/control/speed on on a wave.
 
I'd have a soft chine at the stern to allow it to slide around easier and not be quite as "grabby" and a little more forgiving than a hard chine.
 
I'd also have a square stern to increase speed/tracking.
 
Where there is keel at the bow and stern, I would make it as finea a line as possible. more like a V and less like a U.
 
I'd also add a drop skeg.
 
The cockpit area I'd like to see as low as possible, with white water style outfitting-hip pads, low back band, contoured seat and thighstraps. better contact with the boat gives better control.
 
The deck area I wouldn't change much, and I still prefer bulkheads just to keep my gear from going to the far reaches of the boat. I do like internal rod storage.
 
I would essentialy like this hull: http://phseakayaks.com/kayaks.php?kayak=Delphin 155 RM
but 25 inches wide and SOT.
 
Essentialy it would be a Brit style SOT rather than a North American style SOT. Some Hobies get pretty close to this criteria with the bow shape and squared stern, but inbetween the bow and stern sections, I'd have it a little flatter, more of a medium-hard chine, lower seating and more bow rocker....and a skeg rather than rudder...because I like my paddle.
 
Just in the last couple of years, people have been applying hydrodynamic testing before building a boat. Some of the boats that have come out in the last two years are spectacularly better performers in every way compared to every other kayak ever made. the Tide Race Xcite, P&H Delphin, Tide Race Xtreme are all really good examples. Until that started happening, boats were literally designed by sketching out a drawing, making a plug, molding a boat, testing it, then going back and reshaping....kind of trial and error. There were some great boats that worked well, but the new stuff just blows it away.
 
I'm not dissing any kayak designer, but literally designs were drawn on cocktail napkins at bars and most still are. I don't think we should ever be satisfied with any kayak design, because it will force designers to keep thinking, and building better boats. That's the whole reason I keep whining. I just think they could be better, more versitile.
 
For me, I think that would be the perfect boat. It would surf, tour, fish, rock garden, carve, edge. It would be more than just a good fishing yak.
 
I'll admit there are times when I wish I had more primary stability while fishing from a 21" wide sea kayak. Things have to be way simplified with a closed deck vs. open deck. Gear is harder to access, fish are harder to deal with once out of the water, anchoring in current is a real ass whip etc., but I have a hard time having fun in most SOT's because while they're great for fishing, they're pretty lame for everything else in comparrison to the HP boats I've grown acustomed to. I'm not saying they are bad or dumb or whatever, just not for me. I've had a T-15 and a Scupper Pro in the last 3 years and both saw the water twice and then sat in the basement. I personally would rather adapt my fishing to my prefered boat than my boat to my fishing.
 
I could hold a line on a wave in the T-15, but it was so big it just rode straight into the beach and I felt like trying to turn at all and surf would result in some joint or muscle tearing. The scupper pro was the opposite. I couldn't hold a line to save my life and ended up side surfing into the beach ever time. Somewhere inbetween is the right boat I guess.

Guys, I don't want to debate physics and hydrodynamics. they are laws. it's how hulls work. weather you can make it work or not, that's how it is.

Which brings up an interesting discussion.  Most kayak anglers have no idea how to "make it work".  Assuming that is true, what would the perfect kayak be for them?

-Allen

hobie pedal drive. that's exactly why SOT design has gone the way it has. Fine for most, not for me personally.

I have an answer for every statement question you will ever have about hull design, but I don't want to spend my time arguing what I already know to be true. It's easier for me to wait for you to figure it out on your own....or not.....If yo have a question, I'll answer it, if you have an argument, go read up on the subject and realize I might actually know what I'm talking about. I only do it for a living

What is the prismatic coefficient of the Hobie Adventure.

What are the specs?

What does it really friggin matter? to me it looks like they designed a craft that is adapted specifically for a local target use. which is what boat designers have been doing for centuries any ways.

we can all debate this until the entire world is a marine reserve and the only fish we see are those farmed carcasses laying on crushed ice in a rationed grocery store.

from what I've learned in the few short years I've been doing this, even the original kayaks were all local adaptations of a general design. and i think SOT designers have taken this lesson to heart and just mass market a general hull design that works for the most part for "Everyman".

Bottom lines;

1. use what works for you.

2. the fact that someone always thinks there is room for improvement usually leads to someone daring enough to take the risks, buck the status quo, and design a newer or more targeted craft. 

So, in this case, Jason might not like what he's had to play with because it doesn't fit his functional criteria. Are there any boat designers and investment banker types  among us who are willing to work with him to design that perfect pacific Ocean boat he wants?

It doesn't. That's why I was posting a review and not a boat design debate. I stated what I prefer in comparrison to what's available, and again opened a can of worms.