Near Tragedy at Point-No-Point 1/31/11

If all kayak fisherman trained like sea kayakers, we'd have a lot less problems.

I think I understand what you're trying to say but I think you also may be underestimating just how safety conscious most of us are.

In the PNP incident, obviously outerwear was an issue but I think the main issue was practicing the self rescue. We've got to practice it until it'd second nature and not forget to spend a day every year to make sure we're still good at it. This was a great example of just how fast frigid water saps our energy.

Z

agreed. I know everyone here is safety conscious. What I see day in and day out is that, for some reason a good deal of people who use SINK's in the ocean and WW spend a good deal of time learning and training boating & safety skills. It's actually kind of fun some times. There are all sorts of opportunities like classes, trainings, symposiums, etc. The majority of kayak fisherman on the other hand may practice climbing back on deck a few times but that's about it. The assumption seems to be that because they can climb back on and use a VHF they're good to go and, in reality there is a lot more to it than that.

http://www.ggsks.com/
http://www.lumpywaters.com/
http://www.bcuna.com/
http://www.americancanoe.org/site/c.lvIZIkNZJuE/b.4085469/k.BF93/Home.htm

If all kayak fisherman trained like sea kayakers, we'd have a lot less problems.

J

It sounds like he aggravated an old injury and was unable to paddle effectively. I don't see how sea kayakers are immune to this?

His buddies not knowing how to safely get him back to shore with an inline tow & pulling the sail out of thewater is the problem, not the injured guy.

If all kayak fisherman trained like sea kayakers, we'd have a lot less problems.

I think I understand what you're trying to say but I think you also may be underestimating just how safety conscious most of us are.

I understand what both of you are saying, but ... 

I don't think you can point to all of sea kayakers as a user group and compare.  There is a certain sub-group of sea kayakers that take it up a level.  But there is certainly a whole bunch of them that are not all about safety.

While many of us are safety conscious, it's nothing like the sub-group of sea kayakers of which Nookie speaks.

-Allen

agreed. And my view is probably skewed because I work at a kayak shop. I'd say those sea kayakers not interest in training are classified as "recreational" paddlers rather than sea kayakers. paddling a sink doesn't neccessarily make you a sea kayaker, but paddling in the ocean (SOT or SINK) does put you in the sea kayak need to know stuff category. Getting over that SOT/SINK difference is what I'm hoping for.

J

agreed. And my view is probably skewed because I work at a kayak shop. I'd say those sea kayakers not interest in training are classified as "recreational" paddlers rather than sea kayakers. paddling a sink doesn't neccessarily make you a sea kayaker, but paddling in the ocean (SOT or SINK) does put you in the sea kayak need to know stuff category. Getting over that SOT/SINK difference is what I'm hoping for.

J

Then we're back to "training" being key!!!  When can I start the "BCU 5 star kayak angler" class?

And I think most kayak anglers (well, certainly most that participate here) fall into the recreational category.  But we are probably more safety conscious than most recreational users.

-Allen

I'm thinking the BCU Foundations of Safet and Rescue class is really what we need to do. It's a non boat specific- sea kayak, canoe, SOT, rec boat, class

http://bcuna.com/PDF-Files/Syllabus/Safety/Safety_&_Rescue%20Fountation_Syllabus.pdf

but I'm working with a couple of coaches to develop more SOT specific techniques.

J

Allan- All the BCU certs are non-boat specific, you could use a SOT or canoe or whatever. There are different certs for sea, WW, & Surf, burt not different boats. Although at a certain point certain boats will make it harder to do the requirements.

If all kayak fisherman trained like sea kayakers, we'd have a lot less problems.

Agreed. I won't insult your intelligence by stating the obvious. I'm confident you know why kayak anglers don't train like sea kayakers.

I'd very much like to know what you and the greater traditional SIK touring crowd are prepared to do. We have ample examples that traditional SIK approaches don't motivate the typical kayak angler, who is a fisherman first and foremost and may not feel comfortable around some who carry themselves as the kayaking elite.

That's meant in a general sense, not personal. There are bridges to be built. I suspect this will go nowhere until prominent, respected kayak anglers start filling the role.

This is a valuable conversation. I'm looking forward to hearing your further thoughts.

I'm thinking the BCU Foundations of Safet and Rescue class is really what we need to do. It's a non boat specific- sea kayak, canoe, SOT, rec boat, class

http://bcuna.com/PDF-Files/Syllabus/Safety/Safety_&_Rescue%20Fountation_Syllabus.pdf

but I'm working with a couple of coaches to develop more SOT specific techniques.

J

Allan- All the BCU certs are non-boat specific, you could use a SOT or canoe or whatever. There are different certs for sea, WW, & Surf, burt not different boats. Although at a certain point certain boats will make it harder to do the requirements.

Jason,
I'll be the first to register for something like this. And then we can fish some more! 

Jay

If all kayak fisherman trained like sea kayakers, we'd have a lot less problems.

Agreed. I won't insult your intelligence by stating the obvious. I'm confident you know why kayak anglers don't train like sea kayakers.

I'd very much like to know what you and the greater traditional SIK touring crowd are prepared to do. We have ample examples that traditional SIK approaches don't motivate the typical kayak angler, who is a fisherman first and foremost and may not feel comfortable around some who carry themselves as the kayaking elite.

That's meant in a general sense, not personal. There are bridges to be built. I suspect this will go nowhere until prominent, respected kayak anglers start filling the role.

This is a valuable conversation. I'm looking forward to hearing your further thoughts.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather learn from the elite or experts of any group. I'd want an elite lawyer, or an elite doctor. They are "elite" because they're good and they know there stuff. There's just as many SOT guys scoffing at "elitist" sea kayakers as sea kayakers at SOT's. From my end, it's more about knowledge and skills than the boat, for that reason, rec boaters and gapers in general are what get's scoffed at for their lack of knowledge/safety not the boat. It just so happens that the majority of SOT guys fall into that REC boat category for the reasons we're discussing now. That being said, a dummy in a sea kayak is still a dummy just like a dummy in a SOT, canoe, my little pony blow up raft, etc. and regardless of the boat will likely catch hell from anyone who knows better.

I get it that fisherman are independent, DIY, alpha, etc. but we shouldn't let our egos get in the way of learning proper safety skills. and in my experience you can't out alpha a hard core sea kayak coach. So I can see how alpha + alpha can rub you the wrong way.

Really, those trained in safety, rescue, and kayaking skills should be teaching/coaching this stuff. There are curriculums, coaching theory & techniques, and lots of practice teaching this stuff and doing it in the real world that anyone else generally can't provide.

I think it's time for SOT guys to buck up, swallow their pride, and admit you are kayakers so we can get to learning and being safe rather than wallowing in our subtle difference.

What I'm trying to get at is that, if you paddle (SOT/canoe/SINK/SUP) in the ocean, the skills and knowledge needed are the same regardless of your craft of choice. There are slight differences in techniques between craft, but the concepts are the same. We need to get over the seperation of SOT's from kayaking. If you use a kayak for whatever end-goal, you are a kayaker first and foremost. Just because we're fisherman doesn't mean we don't have to know kayaking skills. What if your airline pilot said - "it's cool I'll just wing it, I'm a fisherman first pilot second"?

take a look at the BCU Foundations of Safety and Reascue sylabus in the link above. That is exactly what I'm planning on doing, but specific to SOT's.

When it comes down to it, the boat doesn't matter. It's about the person in it. And any kayak angler who has these skills and could lead this class learned it from a closed deck boater anyway

I'm thinking the BCU Foundations of Safet and Rescue class is really what we need to do. It's a non boat specific- sea kayak, canoe, SOT, rec boat, class

http://bcuna.com/PDF-Files/Syllabus/Safety/Safety_&_Rescue%20Fountation_Syllabus.pdf

but I'm working with a couple of coaches to develop more SOT specific techniques.

J

Allan- All the BCU certs are non-boat specific, you could use a SOT or canoe or whatever. There are different certs for sea, WW, & Surf, burt not different boats. Although at a certain point certain boats will make it harder to do the requirements.

Jason,
I'll be the first to register for something like this. And then we can fish some more! 

Jay

we'll be swimming so much, we should just noodle.

some things to think about when planning this;

make sure the syllabus is a flexible, living thing, so you can adjust as needed.

offer these classes on a monthly or bi monthly basis from say march to september. ( time frame adjustable, i tossed those in there as suggestions to fill out my thought train)

offer in more than one location.

and yes, i'd attend if schedule permitted

Allen, SPOT, Zee,
I think we might want to back track this to the original post and split it off as it's own entity.

I'm thinking the BCU Foundations of Safet and Rescue class is really what we need to do. It's a non boat specific- sea kayak, canoe, SOT, rec boat, class

http://bcuna.com/PDF-Files/Syllabus/Safety/Safety_&_Rescue%20Fountation_Syllabus.pdf

but I'm working with a couple of coaches to develop more SOT specific techniques.

J

Allan- All the BCU certs are non-boat specific, you could use a SOT or canoe or whatever. There are different certs for sea, WW, & Surf, burt not different boats. Although at a certain point certain boats will make it harder to do the requirements.

Jason,
I'll be the first to register for something like this. And then we can fish some more! 

Jay

we'll be swimming so much, we should just noodle.

I'm ok with that as long as it is noodling and not spooning...

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather learn from the elite or experts of any group. I'd want an elite lawyer, or an elite doctor. They are "elite" because they're good and they know there stuff. There's just as many SOT guys scoffing at "elitist" sea kayakers as sea kayakers at SOT's. From my end, it's more about knowledge and skills than the boat, for that reason, rec boaters and gapers in general are what get's scoffed at for their lack of knowledge/safety not the boat. It just so happens that the majority of SOT guys fall into that REC boat category for the reasons we're discussing now. That being said, a dummy in a sea kayak is still a dummy just like a dummy in a SOT, canoe, my little pony blow up raft, etc. and regardless of the boat will likely catch hell from anyone who knows better.

Really?  It's that elite attitude that has you butting heads here all the time.  I appreciate the passion for safety, but let me give a different perspective.  I drive to work every day.  I've never taken a class from an expert (even though my high school driver's ed instructor probably thought he was).  I've never taken ongoing lessons, except for a couple times taking traffic school to get a ticket off my record.  Would I love to take a class from Mario Andretti?  Sure!  Is it necessary?  Hardly.  I drive out of necessity.  An "expert" like Mario drives out of passion.  He trains, and trains, and trains to be better because being better at it is why he drive.  That's not the majority of drivers on the road.  And you know what?  They all do just fine.  "Sea Kayakers" paddle for the sake of kayaking.  Ongoing training is part of that passion.  Kayak Anglers paddle for the sake of fishing.  Ongoing training is not part of that just like I don't take ongoing drivers training.

I get it that fisherman are independent, DIY, alpha, etc. but we shouldn't let our egos get in the way of learning proper safety skills. and in my experience you can't out alpha a hard core sea kayak coach. So I can see how alpha + alpha can rub you the wrong way.

You don't GET IT.  The only ego getting in the way is your "elite ego".

Really, those trained in safety, rescue, and kayaking skills should be teaching/coaching this stuff. There are curriculums, coaching theory & techniques, and lots of practice teaching this stuff and doing it in the real world that anyone else generally can't provide.

Nothing wrong with the school of hard knocks.  Seriously.  1000's of kayak anglers are doing just fine.

I think it's time for SOT guys to buck up, swallow their pride, and admit you are kayakers so we can get to learning and being safe rather than wallowing in our subtle difference.

I think it's time for the experts to shut up, and swallow their pride.

What I'm trying to get at is that, if you paddle (SOT/canoe/SINK/SUP) in the ocean, the skills and knowledge needed are the same regardless of your craft of choice. There are slight differences in techniques between craft, but the concepts are the same. We need to get over the seperation of SOT's from kayaking. If you use a kayak for whatever end-goal, you are a kayaker first and foremost. Just because we're fisherman doesn't mean we don't have to know kayaking skills. What if your airline pilot said - "it's cool I'll just wing it, I'm a fisherman first pilot second"?

Just because I drive a car doesn't make me a driver first and foremost.  I just need it to get to work.

take a look at the BCU Foundations of Safety and Reascue sylabus in the link above. That is exactly what I'm planning on doing, but specific to SOT's.

When it comes down to it, the boat doesn't matter. It's about the person in it. And any kayak angler who has these skills and could lead this class learned it from a closed deck boater anyway

What does closed deck boating have to do with anything?  I know you are probably joking, but after all the other words you had above, it's hardly funny.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm all for having a safer community.  But I really don't think the "sea kayaker's mentality" is going to work here.

-Allen

+1000... Well said Pole!  Thanks for echoing my feelings 100%  Any reply I considered making would just have earned me the Asshat    

The Kayaking community is fairly small. Why in the hell would we try and make it smaller by dividing it "Us vs Them" Sea Kayakers vs everyone else.

I have seen this same attitude played out time and time again on the beach. Launching right along side the sea kayak guys and it's like I am not even there.

Bury the elitist attitude it doesn't help anyone.