Near Tragedy at Point-No-Point 1/31/11

BCU = British Canoe Union, which has developed extensive training programs covering paddling skills (emphasis on rolling up and does not cover the paddle-float technique developed in Seattle by Cam and Matt Broze of Mariner Kayaks) rescue skills, leadership and coaching, etc etc.
   Back around 1983, when I started in sea kayaking, I considered this, but did not like the fact that it was stratified---to get level 3 training you need to pass level 2 test (at least this was the case 30 years ago), and it was costly.  A lot of the skills covered don't have application to SOT yaks, but a lot does----safety and rescue, wind and tides  and trip planning, etc but the emphasis is (or was, someone more versed in BCU can correct me) on multi-day expeditions rather than day tripping.
   There did seem to be some snobbery (I'm better than you because you're self taught and I have a 3-star BCU rating) involved, but maybe I was being over-sensitive, being a self-taught newby.   I wanted to take a 2-week trip in the Broken Group Islands in BC, and felt that I needed more info and training than I got form the books I was reading on Sea Kayaking.
I wound up taking the Northwest Kayak shop's 3-day course, which covered tides, waves, planning, rescue and had pool session with training in the paddle float rescue, which does not require roll-up and works  well with heavily loaded SINKS.  SOTs were pretty much unknown in the PNW back then.  A good Eskimo roll minimizes exposure, but certain yaks are better for this than others, and having a "bombproof"  roll takes  constant practice. I never developed that skill, but got pretty good at the paddle re-entry.  Take a look at this local shop's BCU course, seems pretty well tailored to local needs:

http://www.aldercreek.com/kayak-instruction/sea-kayak-bcu-4-star.cfm

    As with any recreation which involves some risk, the more time you spend on educating yourself and practicing your skills ---especially rescue techniques--- the more likely there will be a happy ending to an accident or upset.  I feel the need for some training in rescue techniques, both self-rescue and rescue of others.  Whether BCU is the answer remains to be seen, but I am open to ideas.A NWKA weekend seminar will be greatly welcomed!!
     I have not second-guessed my decisions in the PNP rescue, as I got the guy to shore without disastrous consequence ( re ipsa loquitur) , but I'm open to feedback and critique, and eager for some real-world rescue training in real-world conditions. It was the best I could do with what he was capable to do, but there's definitely room for improvement.  X and I have discussed the incident at some length, and tossed around other options to what we did.  He's been talking to George Gronseth at Kayak Academy, and Dan at Hobie Cats Northwest, and after he's properly dry-suited, we plan some re-entry training in Quartermaster Harbor this month.  He's a bit gu-shy but wants to get back on the horse.....

what I'm saying is that every time a SOT guy says "elitist sea kayakers" they are doing exactly to sea kayakers what SOT's are complaining about in the first place. The resistance to learning kayak skills and doing things like paddling in the ocean in cotton etc. etc. etc.etc. are what get people in any kind of boat going out on the ocean ridiculed. It just so happens that the majority of people who "don't know any better" are in recreational or SOT's on the ocean. Just like you guys lump all sea kayakers into "elitist" category, all rec boaters and SOT's get lumped into the "gaper" category.

All I can say is buck up. When I take a sea kayak in the surf, I get ridiculed by board surfers, I don't cry about it, I just do my thing. When they see that I'm competent and considerate, they stop talking smack. When you appear competent and considerate, you will stop catching hell. WW boaters catch hell from surfers in the ocean as well, they don't cry. SUP guys take crap from board surfers as well. I'm pretty sure we can find a group that doesn't like another no matter what boat we're in, so who cares?

Also, if you automatically assume all sea kayakers are dicks, that's what you'll get.

It goes both ways.

I'm saying, you're here, you're a kayaker, get used to it. By thinking you are a fisherman and not a kayaker, you are automatically setting yourself up for disaster. I do lots of different things from a kayak but it's still kayaking.

and that if I want to learn fishing I ask a fisherman. If I want to learn kayaking I ask a kayaker. If I want to learn algebra I ask an algebra teacher. If I want to learn football, I don't ask a soccer coach. Make sense?

What I'm saying is that in order to provide the most knowledge/best instruction on the subject & truly learn kayaking safety skills, you need to have an expert kayak instructor teaching it, not a kayak fisherman unless they are specifically trained in kayak skills (that's what I meant by "they learned it from a guy in a closed deck boat anyway." This isn't about fishing, it isn't about SOT's or sea kayaks, it's about learning proper safety/rescue skills and how to prevent ever needing to use them in the real world. In order to learn that, you need someone who knows 1000 different techniques, when to use them, and why. You need to learn with someone with lots of experience on the subject, who also applies it in the real world. Someone like that can not only teach what to do and why, but also what not to do and why. There are bigger concepts here than climbing back on the boat and not dumping your fishing rod. If we really want to accomplish raising the safety & awareness factor, we should follow a proven, well thought out and concise syllabus taught by someone who is practiced in not only teaching these skills, but using them. The BCU scheme is the best option available on the West Coast. The ACA is kind of a joke out here. The ACA did a level four open ocean cert on the columbia above bonneville. In my mind, anyone who holds that cert may or may not have ever paddled in the ocean, which doesn't build confidence in the ACA on my end. East coast ACA is good. West Coast it's fairly weak.

I'm not dissing kayak anglers, I am one, that's why I'm on this forum. Even though I use a sea kayak and therefore lumped into the elitist category, I'm more concerned about bringing kayak fisherman into the kayak world and giving them an opportunity to acquire the knowledge and skills necessary to not get scoffed at. My goal is to quit reading disaster stories, from any boater.

And I'm not talking about myself leading. I was actually thinking of having one of the BCU level 5 coaches lead it. These guys have way more experience, knowledge, and good ways to teach it. These are the guys that I learn from.

Of course we could just wing it and have some guys teaching you safety/rescue who have never taught it before, much less applied it more than a couple times in the real world. But then we might as well just go fishing instead.

BCU = British Canoe Union, which has developed extensive training programs covering paddling skills (emphasis on rolling up and does not cover the paddle-float technique developed in Seattle by Cam and Matt Broze of Mariner Kayaks) rescue skills, leadership and coaching, etc etc.
   Back around 1983, when I started in sea kayaking, I considered this, but did not like the fact that it was stratified---to get level 3 training you need to pass level 2 test (at least this was the case 30 years ago), and it was costly.  A lot of the skills covered don't have application to SOT yaks, but a lot does----safety and rescue, wind and tides  and trip planning, etc but the emphasis is (or was, someone more versed in BCU can correct me) on multi-day expeditions rather than day tripping.
   There did seem to be some snobbery (I'm better than you because you're self taught and I have a 3-star BCU rating) involved, but maybe I was being over-sensitive, being a self-taught newby.   I wanted to take a 2-week trip in the Broken Group Islands in BC, and felt that I needed more info and training than I got form the books I was reading on Sea Kayaking.
I wound up taking the Northwest Kayak shop's 3-day course, which covered tides, waves, planning, rescue and had pool session with training in the paddle float rescue, which does not require roll-up and works  well with heavily loaded SINKS.  SOTs were pretty much unknown in the PNW back then.  A good Eskimo roll minimizes exposure, but certain yaks are better for this than others, and having a "bombproof"  roll takes  constant practice. I never developed that skill, but got pretty good at the paddle re-entry.  Take a look at this local shop's BCU course, seems pretty well tailored to local needs:

http://www.aldercreek.com/kayak-instruction/sea-kayak-bcu-4-star.cfm

    As with any recreation which involves some risk, the more time you spend on educating yourself and practicing your skills ---especially rescue techniques--- the more likely there will be a happy ending to an accident or upset.  I feel the need for some training in rescue techniques, both self-rescue and rescue of others.  Whether BCU is the answer remains to be seen, but I am open to ideas.A NWKA weekend seminar will be greatly welcomed!!
     I have not second-guessed my decisions in the PNP rescue, as I got the guy to shore without disastrous consequence ( re ipsa loquitur) , but I'm open to feedback and critique, and eager for some real-world rescue training in real-world conditions. It was the best I could do with what he was capable to do, but there's definitely room for improvement.  X and I have discussed the incident at some length, and tossed around other options to what we did.  He's been talking to George Gronseth at Kayak Academy, and Dan at Hobie Cats Northwest, and after he's properly dry-suited, we plan some re-entry training in Quartermaster Harbor this month.  He's a bit gu-shy but wants to get back on the horse.....

The BCU scheme was revised 3 years ago or so and the emphases has changed from sea kayak specific to whatever boat. You can skip levels, I had to do the 1* for work, skipped the 2*, and did the (new) 3* which is more similar to the old 4*

Everything in all of those levels applies to any sit-down paddle craft, be it canoe, SOT, rec boat, or sea kayak. Sometimes the connection of techniques to different boats needs to explained, and yes a while back, sea kayaks were considered the standard. Since then the BCU shifted it's strategy to emphasize learning in any type of kayak/canoe.

Hell the Brits don't even distinguish between canoe and kayak, they just call them all canoes. No elitism there.

BCU coaches are known for being super nerds. Just like super math guys or super computer guys. When a super computer guy talks about computers, I feel like an idiot, and sometimes feel a little small. It doesn't change the fact that they know what they're talking about and I stand to learn a ton if I can keep from getting my feelings hurt because someone else is telling/teaching/directing me that knows more than me.

I think sometimes a confidence in ones knowledge and skills can come across as "elitist", but I assure you any coach worth their salt (practiced in coaching theory) is not going to make you feel that way. They are large and in-charge, but that's what you need from a leader on the sea. Timidness and unsureness don't fly out there.

The 1* is about flatwater kayaking skills (strokes & edging pretty much, and yes, that applies to SOT's and canoes as well)
The 2* is about flatwater strokes, edging, re-entry and rescue in canoe and kayak
The 3* is about applying those skills on the ocean + solo & assisted rescue, towing 100 ways, and navigation while participating as a competent member of a group at sea
4* is about leadership - you're now leading that group at sea you're expected to have mastered the kayaking/safety skills at this point and the assessment is about group & incident mgmnt, debacle avoidance,  and leadership.
5* is leadership as well but in nastier conditions.
With each level, the conditions for remit get bigger.

I'm not saying we need to do BCU certs, but having a BCU level 5 coach teach the class is going to be the best opportunity/most knowledge to gain. Someone practiced in teaching this stuff will be beneficial as well.

I think you did a fine job Kalli. At the end of the day, everyone was OK, and that's all that matters. I just think there's always room for improvement, and having practiced disasters and different ways to resolve them with proven techniques will hopefully make those incidents become fewer and fewer, and when they do happen, we'll be better equipped to deal with them.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather learn from the elite or experts of any group. I'd want an elite lawyer, or an elite doctor. They are "elite" because they're good and they know there stuff. There's just as many SOT guys scoffing at "elitist" sea kayakers as sea kayakers at SOT's. From my end, it's more about knowledge and skills than the boat, for that reason, rec boaters and gapers in general are what get's scoffed at for their lack of knowledge/safety not the boat. It just so happens that the majority of SOT guys fall into that REC boat category for the reasons we're discussing now. That being said, a dummy in a sea kayak is still a dummy just like a dummy in a SOT, canoe, my little pony blow up raft, etc. and regardless of the boat will likely catch hell from anyone who knows better.

Really?  It's that elite attitude that has you butting heads here all the time.  I appreciate the passion for safety, but let me give a different perspective.  I drive to work every day.  I've never taken a class from an expert (even though my high school driver's ed instructor probably thought he was).  I've never taken ongoing lessons, except for a couple times taking traffic school to get a ticket off my record.  Would I love to take a class from Mario Andretti?  Sure!  Is it necessary?  Hardly.  I drive out of necessity.  An "expert" like Mario drives out of passion.  He trains, and trains, and trains to be better because being better at it is why he drive.  That's not the majority of drivers on the road.  And you know what?  They all do just fine.  "Sea Kayakers" paddle for the sake of kayaking.  Ongoing training is part of that passion.  Kayak Anglers paddle for the sake of fishing.  Ongoing training is not part of that just like I don't take ongoing drivers training.

I get it that fisherman are independent, DIY, alpha, etc. but we shouldn't let our egos get in the way of learning proper safety skills. and in my experience you can't out alpha a hard core sea kayak coach. So I can see how alpha + alpha can rub you the wrong way.

You don't GET IT.  The only ego getting in the way is your "elite ego".

Really, those trained in safety, rescue, and kayaking skills should be teaching/coaching this stuff. There are curriculums, coaching theory & techniques, and lots of practice teaching this stuff and doing it in the real world that anyone else generally can't provide.

Nothing wrong with the school of hard knocks.  Seriously.  1000's of kayak anglers are doing just fine.

I think it's time for SOT guys to buck up, swallow their pride, and admit you are kayakers so we can get to learning and being safe rather than wallowing in our subtle difference.

I think it's time for the experts to shut up, and swallow their pride.

What I'm trying to get at is that, if you paddle (SOT/canoe/SINK/SUP) in the ocean, the skills and knowledge needed are the same regardless of your craft of choice. There are slight differences in techniques between craft, but the concepts are the same. We need to get over the seperation of SOT's from kayaking. If you use a kayak for whatever end-goal, you are a kayaker first and foremost. Just because we're fisherman doesn't mean we don't have to know kayaking skills. What if your airline pilot said - "it's cool I'll just wing it, I'm a fisherman first pilot second"?

Just because I drive a car doesn't make me a driver first and foremost.  I just need it to get to work.

take a look at the BCU Foundations of Safety and Reascue sylabus in the link above. That is exactly what I'm planning on doing, but specific to SOT's.

When it comes down to it, the boat doesn't matter. It's about the person in it. And any kayak angler who has these skills and could lead this class learned it from a closed deck boater anyway

What does closed deck boating have to do with anything?  I know you are probably joking, but after all the other words you had above, it's hardly funny.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm all for having a safer community.  But I really don't think the "sea kayaker's mentality" is going to work here.

-Allen

If you could take driving lessons (safety & rescue) from Mario (BCU coach) for free, why wouldn't you? wouldn't you say that would be better, more beneficial instruction than what your drivers ed teacher (kayak angler) gave you? Or maybe you wouldn't because he's elite and that would make you feel like you don't know as much as someone else?

Can anyone hop in a kayak and paddle? yes. Does that mean they are safe/competent/skilled? no.

I think the majority of people do need a better driving instructor. If merging on the highway in portland is an indication of driving skills, the entire city of portland could benefit from better instruction.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather learn from the elite or experts of any group. I'd want an elite lawyer, or an elite doctor. They are "elite" because they're good and they know there stuff. There's just as many SOT guys scoffing at "elitist" sea kayakers as sea kayakers at SOT's. From my end, it's more about knowledge and skills than the boat, for that reason, rec boaters and gapers in general are what get's scoffed at for their lack of knowledge/safety not the boat. It just so happens that the majority of SOT guys fall into that REC boat category for the reasons we're discussing now. That being said, a dummy in a sea kayak is still a dummy just like a dummy in a SOT, canoe, my little pony blow up raft, etc. and regardless of the boat will likely catch hell from anyone who knows better.

Really?  It's that elite attitude that has you butting heads here all the time.  I appreciate the passion for safety, but let me give a different perspective.  I drive to work every day.  I've never taken a class from an expert (even though my high school driver's ed instructor probably thought he was).  I've never taken ongoing lessons, except for a couple times taking traffic school to get a ticket off my record.  Would I love to take a class from Mario Andretti?  Sure!  Is it necessary?  Hardly.  I drive out of necessity.  An "expert" like Mario drives out of passion.  He trains, and trains, and trains to be better because being better at it is why he drive.  That's not the majority of drivers on the road.  And you know what?  They all do just fine.  "Sea Kayakers" paddle for the sake of kayaking.  Ongoing training is part of that passion.  Kayak Anglers paddle for the sake of fishing.  Ongoing training is not part of that just like I don't take ongoing drivers training.

I get it that fisherman are independent, DIY, alpha, etc. but we shouldn't let our egos get in the way of learning proper safety skills. and in my experience you can't out alpha a hard core sea kayak coach. So I can see how alpha + alpha can rub you the wrong way.

You don't GET IT.  The only ego getting in the way is your "elite ego".

Really, those trained in safety, rescue, and kayaking skills should be teaching/coaching this stuff. There are curriculums, coaching theory & techniques, and lots of practice teaching this stuff and doing it in the real world that anyone else generally can't provide.

Nothing wrong with the school of hard knocks.  Seriously.  1000's of kayak anglers are doing just fine.

I think it's time for SOT guys to buck up, swallow their pride, and admit you are kayakers so we can get to learning and being safe rather than wallowing in our subtle difference.

I think it's time for the experts to shut up, and swallow their pride.

What I'm trying to get at is that, if you paddle (SOT/canoe/SINK/SUP) in the ocean, the skills and knowledge needed are the same regardless of your craft of choice. There are slight differences in techniques between craft, but the concepts are the same. We need to get over the seperation of SOT's from kayaking. If you use a kayak for whatever end-goal, you are a kayaker first and foremost. Just because we're fisherman doesn't mean we don't have to know kayaking skills. What if your airline pilot said - "it's cool I'll just wing it, I'm a fisherman first pilot second"?

Just because I drive a car doesn't make me a driver first and foremost.  I just need it to get to work.

take a look at the BCU Foundations of Safety and Reascue sylabus in the link above. That is exactly what I'm planning on doing, but specific to SOT's.

When it comes down to it, the boat doesn't matter. It's about the person in it. And any kayak angler who has these skills and could lead this class learned it from a closed deck boater anyway

What does closed deck boating have to do with anything?  I know you are probably joking, but after all the other words you had above, it's hardly funny.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm all for having a safer community.  But I really don't think the "sea kayaker's mentality" is going to work here.

-Allen

Dude, get over it. You're kayaking, and you need to learn from a kayak instructor. This hard headed BS is only encouraging more ignorance and giving people excuses not to learn more than they could on their own.

All I can say is buck up. When I take a sea kayak in the surf, I get ridiculed by board surfers. WW boaters catch hell from surfers in the ocean as well. SUP guys take crap from board surfers as well.

So we can agree that a lot of suffers are pricks. My girlfriend is a surfer and she even thinks that most surfers are pricks, especially in OR.

I'm saying, you're here, you're a kayaker, get used to it. By thinking you are a fisherman and not a kayaker, you are automatically setting yourself up for disaster. I do lots of different things from a kayak but it's still kayaking.

I'm not a kayaker. I am a sportsman. I hunt, I back pack, I ride mountain bikes, I run ..... I am proficient at all these but not an expert in any. When I go in the wilderness I am prepared if things go wrong, but I have not gone to a training seminar on back packing.

and that if I want to learn fishing I ask a fisherman. If I want to learn kayaking I ask a kayaker. If I want to learn algebra I ask an algebra teacher.

If I want to learn anything I don't ask a prick..... you won't find me asking surfing lessons on the OR coast.

You also wont find me on a Sea Kayaking forum telling those guys what to do and how to do it......

What's it going to take fellas? Someone dying? What's more important- the boat you paddle or the safety of others?

This is ridiculous. What you guys are really saying is you're to good to learn from a sea kayaker. Doesn't that make you SOT elitists? How are we not getting this? I've never met a group of more sensitive "tough guys" in all my life. Just FYI by being a BCU coach you are REQUIRED to be proficient in ANY paddle craft. (sea/SOT/rec kayak or open canoe) and everyone of them paddles more than sea kayaks.

I've never told anyone how to do anything. I've suggested alternatives and given my opinion on how I would do things.

I'm offering my services and the services of the company I work for to improve YOUR safety on the water free of charge.

I guess that makes me an elitist prick.

"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacle should be placed in their path; let them take risk, for God sake, let them get lost, sun burnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches-that is the right and privilege of any free American."

--Edward Abbey--

All I can say is buck up. When I take a sea kayak in the surf, I get ridiculed by board surfers. WW boaters catch hell from surfers in the ocean as well. SUP guys take crap from board surfers as well.

So we can agree that a lot of suffers are pricks. My girlfriend is a surfer and she even thinks that most surfers are pricks, especially in OR.

I'm saying, you're here, you're a kayaker, get used to it. By thinking you are a fisherman and not a kayaker, you are automatically setting yourself up for disaster. I do lots of different things from a kayak but it's still kayaking.

I'm not a kayaker. I am a sportsman. I hunt, I back pack, I ride mountain bikes, I run ..... I am proficient at all these but not an expert in any. When I go in the wilderness I am prepared if things go wrong, but I have not gone to a training seminar on back packing.

and that if I want to learn fishing I ask a fisherman. If I want to learn kayaking I ask a kayaker. If I want to learn algebra I ask an algebra teacher.

If I want to learn anything I don't ask a prick..... you won't find me asking surfing lessons on the OR coast.

You also wont find me on a Sea Kayaking forum telling those guys what to do and how to do it......

Dude, regardless of what you call yourself, if you are using a kayak in the ocean, you are kayaking. the act of kayaking makes you a kayaker at that moment. You might be fishing, you might be shooting, you might be touring, you might be surfing, but you're still kayaking. This is kind of a silly argument, don't you think?

For every self taught outdoorsman, there's 50 idiots who get lost with a GPS in the gorge 1 mile from the highway. Geez there was just two ladies this week.

"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacle should be placed in their path; let them take risk, for God sake, let them get lost, sun burnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches-that is the right and privilege of any free American."

--Edward Abbey--

That's inspiring and all, but no body REALLY wants to die do they?

what I'm saying is that every time a SOT guy says "elitist sea kayakers" they are doing exactly to sea kayakers what SOT's are complaining about in the first place. The resistance to learning kayak skills and doing things like paddling in the ocean in cotton etc. etc. etc.etc. are what get people in any kind of boat going out on the ocean ridiculed. It just so happens that the majority of people who "don't know any better" are in recreational or SOT's on the ocean. Just like you guys lump all sea kayakers into "elitist" category, all rec boaters and SOT's get lumped into the "gaper" category.

Huh?  What resistance to learning kayak skills?  The vibe I get here is that most people here are all about learning kayak skills.

All I can say is buck up. When I take a sea kayak in the surf, I get ridiculed by board surfers, I don't cry about it, I just do my thing. When they see that I'm competent and considerate, they stop talking smack. When you appear competent and considerate, you will stop catching hell. WW boaters catch hell from surfers in the ocean as well, they don't cry. SUP guys take crap from board surfers as well. I'm pretty sure we can find a group that doesn't like another no matter what boat we're in, so who cares?

Who cares?  I do.  What is it that you'd like me to buck up?  Let's not beat around the bush here.  You come across as "elitist sea kayaker" every time you type posts like this.  I got nothing against elitist sea kayakers, just like I got nothing against religion (I'm not very religios).  Just don't preach to me.

I'm saying, you're here, you're a kayaker, get used to it. By thinking you are a fisherman and not a kayaker, you are automatically setting yourself up for disaster. I do lots of different things from a kayak but it's still kayaking.

Who said anything about anyone thinking they are not a kayaker?  I think it's more you passing judgment about people you don't view as kayakers.

and that if I want to learn fishing I ask a fisherman. If I want to learn kayaking I ask a kayaker. If I want to learn algebra I ask an algebra teacher. If I want to learn football, I don't ask a soccer coach. Make sense?

And if I want to learn anything about "kayak fishing" I ask a kayak fisherman, not a sea kayaker that happens to fish.

What I'm saying is that in order to provide the most knowledge/best instruction on the subject & truly learn kayaking safety skills, you need to have an expert kayak instructor teaching it, not a kayak fisherman unless they are specifically trained in kayak skills (that's what I meant by "they learned it from a guy in a closed deck boat anyway."

Not everyone wants/needs the most and the best instruction.  Most things people learn (and retain) in life are not through instruction.

This isn't about fishing, it isn't about SOT's or sea kayaks, it's about learning proper safety/rescue skills and how to prevent ever needing to use them in the real world. In order to learn that, you need someone who knows 1000 different techniques, when to use them, and why. You need to learn with someone with lots of experience on the subject, who also applies it in the real world. Someone like that can not only teach what to do and why, but also what not to do and why. There are bigger concepts here than climbing back on the boat and not dumping your fishing rod. If we really want to accomplish raising the safety & awareness factor, we should follow a proven, well thought out and concise syllabus taught by someone who is practiced in not only teaching these skills, but using them.

I see this attitude all the time in new college grads.  They think they know everything because they were just educated.  I learned more in 3 months on the job than I learned in 6 years of college.   There is more than one way to learn.

I'm not dissing kayak anglers, I am one, that's why I'm on this forum. Even though I use a sea kayak and therefore lumped into the elitist category, I'm more concerned about bringing kayak fisherman into the kayak world and giving them an opportunity to acquire the knowledge and skills necessary to not get scoffed at.

I lump you into the elitist category because of your attitude, not because of the craft you chose to paddle.

And why should anyone scoff at someone with less skills.  Kinda patronizing if you ask me.

-Allen

What's it going to take fellas? Someone dying? What's more important- the boat you paddle or the safety of others?

How many trained sea kayakers have died?  How many kayak anglers?  I don't want make light of this, but really.  Many Sea Kayakers actively seek out the conditions that many (most) kayak anglers actively avoid.

This is ridiculous. What you guys are really saying is you're to good to learn from a sea kayaker. Doesn't that make you SOT elitists? How are we not getting this? I've never met a group of more sensitive "tough guys" in all my life. Just FYI by being a BCU coach you are REQUIRED to be proficient in ANY paddle craft. (sea/SOT/rec kayak or open canoe) and everyone of them paddles more than sea kayaks.

No body said anything about not wanting to learn from a sea kayaker.  The point is that it is NOT REQUIRED to learn from one.

I've never told anyone how to do anything. I've suggested alternatives and given my opinion on how I would do things.

Well, it sure sounds like you're telling us all here HOW TO LEARN.

-Allen

Yeah your right Allan . you're ridiculous and fueling the fire of ignorance. just read the "I'm not a kayaker I'm an outdoorsman" comment.

For those that think they could benefit from instruction from a trained professional, I'm happy to help in any way I can.

For those who don't, that's great, don't come to the clinic.

For those that want to argue just to argue and grow the gap between SOT's and all other kayaking, have fun, I have better things to do.

Nanook let's take a few steps back from this thread. Take a breather and remember the rules, no personal attacks.

This is a good thread and I don't want to see it on lockdown.

Z

Nanook let's take a few steps back from this thread. Take a breather and remember the rules, no personal attacks.

This is a good thread and I don't want to see it on lockdown.

Z

I'm getting personally attacked here. No matter what I say, anytime, anywhere, Allan will take the other side. I'm trying to help by offering a free safety clinci, not waist all my time going back and forth with argument.

Still not telling you how to learn. Just suggesting an alternative that anyone with any common sense would agree with.