Deep six divers

Hey guys,
I recently took up kayak fishing and fish in the salt around the harbour in Vancouver BC.  I have been out a few times and since hooking up my electronics (hook 5) I think I can see my offering on the screen.  It looks like i am only able to get to about 25' deep with the diver.  This is against the current - maybe a couple feet deeper with the current.
I am trying to avoid getting a rigger, is there anyone fishing successfully with a diver for salmon?
I guess a lake troller could handle a 6 lb ball and that would probably do it  as i only need to get to 60'or so...
Any ideas?

Hey guys,
I recently took up kayak fishing and fish in the salt around the harbour in Vancouver BC.  I have been out a few times and since hooking up my electronics (hook 5) I think I can see my offering on the screen.  It looks like i am only able to get to about 25' deep with the diver.  This is against the current - maybe a couple feet deeper with the current.
I am trying to avoid getting a rigger, is there anyone fishing successfully with a diver for salmon?
I guess a lake troller could handle a 6 lb ball and that would probably do it  as i only need to get to 60'or so...
Any ideas?

If you use a a full sized flasher, you are going to get pretty major blowback at 6lbs at those depths at any kind of speed.  It will still get you down...just need to do a little geometry.   A diver might get you down that deep.  But you will have enough line out that I would be surprised you can see diver. 

Unless you have only 25ft of line out, you are not seeing the diver if you are reading 25ft.  Remember if you have 100 ft of line out and somehow the depthfinder can see you gear.  It will ALWAYS show 100 ft depth of the gear even if the gear is really running at 75ft or 10 ft for that matter (Your sonar probably doesn't have that kind of wide coverage but theoretically) .  Sonar simply measures the distance between the sonar and the target its hitting, not the actual depth of the gear.  That's why fish often show up as arches on a fish finder. 

around 50ft of depth is where I start thinking a downrigger is necessary.  Either that or I just use a 10 to 16 oz trolling sinker and powermooch.  If you want to fish around 50ft deep, I let out about 75 ft of line.  Trolling normally, that only gets me down 25 feet or so.  But then I stop or slow down and the gear drifts below me.  As the line angle approaches straight up and down, I speed up again.  Allows for decent presentation at a variety of depths.   

Kardinal - that makes a lot of sense.  I have been fishing without a flasher - just the diver and an anchovy in a teaser head.  I have been working all depths and found some bait in the 40' range but am not yet confident that I am seeing bait and salmon as arches.  In the deeper 120' ish water is where guys usually catch fish at this spot but the fish are also a lot deeper.
What kind of rod are you using to tow around a 16 oz weight?  I have a 9' ugly stick...

Kardinal - that makes a lot of sense.  I have been fishing without a flasher - just the diver and an anchovy in a teaser head.  I have been working all depths and found some bait in the 40' range but am not yet confident that I am seeing bait and salmon as arches.  In the deeper 120' ish water is where guys usually catch fish at this spot but the fish are also a lot deeper.
What kind of rod are you using to tow around a 16 oz weight?  I have a 9' ugly stick...

I use Seeker Hercules or Shimano Trevala rods rated typically for 40 to 100 pound braid (different rods.  For the trevala I use Medium heavy and their heavy jig sticks).  If you are using any of the ugly sticks, it can work, but its just not stiff enough to really handle the divers in my opinion.  The new GX2 series ugly stick seem up to the task.    9 ft is also a LOT longer than any rod I typically use.  I use 5'8" to 6' rods I think.  The longer the rod, the more you have to high stick the rod to land the fish.  The softer the rod, the harder it is to control the fish at kayak side.  My king salmon rods also double as my halibut rod so its tough to jig anything with the softer actions of many of the fiberglass based ugly sticks. 

I should note I think a lot of other folks on this forum will have a different opinion than mine.  As I look around, I tend to have the heaviest gear of just about anyone I typically run into.

Thats an interesting comment about the 9' glass ugly stick not being stiff enough for a diver.  Is a stiffer rod required?  I would have thought a more felxible rod would allow the diver to pull deeper...
So what do guys do if the need to get 50'?  Is a rigger or power mooching the only option?  The power mooching sounds like a good way to get the presentation to drop but a 16oz weight is massive.  I am thinking back to the 80s when downriggers didn't even exist and guys did ok.
My problem with the rigger is most guys have the rigger behind the seat.  I am in an outback and my shoulder is hooped so reaching back to crank the lever isn't really an option.
I might see if i can mount a smaller scotty lake troller next to me but I wont have room to get the fish in the boat!  Tons of newbie questions...

Thats an interesting comment about the 9' glass ugly stick not being stiff enough for a diver.  Is a stiffer rod required?  I would have thought a more felxible rod would allow the diver to pull deeper...
So what do guys do if the need to get 50'?  Is a rigger or power mooching the only option?  The power mooching sounds like a good way to get the presentation to drop but a 16oz weight is massive.  I am thinking back to the 80s when downriggers didn't even exist and guys did ok.
My problem with the rigger is most guys have the rigger behind the seat.  I am in an outback and my shoulder is hooped so reaching back to crank the lever isn't really an option.
I might see if i can mount a smaller scotty lake troller next to me but I wont have room to get the fish in the boat!  Tons of newbie questions...

Good question.  Powerboats run divers with the set up you mention all of the time.  But to use the largest deep six divers, they will put a HUGE bend in the rod.  The bend doesn't have anything to do I wouldn't think with how far a diver dives.  I have snapped at least two "normal" salmon rods pulling deep six divers. I will say both times I was yanking on the rod trying to trip the release so it was easier to reel the gear in.  Now I may tug a bit but if it doesn't come lose, the kayaks seems to go to the diver anyways so I try not to stress my rods.   In the old days, I know people trolled all the time with super heavy weights on a three way swivel and had release that dropped the lead after a strike.  I'd go broke doing that here in Alaska where shipping for everything is expensive. 

I have my downrigger mounted on the back.  But i know folks who have cut off the boom of a full size downrigger so they could mount them up front.  Because I fish shallower than 50ft most of the time.  10 to 12 oz of lead is what the norm is.  Rods don't have any issue pulling that weight.    You might have heard that a big bend in the rod is required for downrigger fishing.  I think that's baloney but its only my opinion. 

If you look on Luhr Jensen's page, it shows their stuff diving to 90 feet for the largest sizes.  http://www.luhrjensen.com/luhr-jensen/trolling-accessories/deep-sixandtrade/Deep+Six.html  You probably need to put out over 200 ft of line at any speed.  That's fine as long as you aren't having to mess with bycatch like pollock all day long. 

Hopefully someone else chimes in.  I know others do it differently.  And for whatever its worth, its hard to beat local knowledge.  But because I am in a kayak, I fish a LOT shallower than the powerboats in many cases...especially kings.  I would try running shallower as well.  When I would share my success, a few of the charter guys would tell me to keep quiet...THAT is a secret! They would say.   lol.  I also don't think its any issue for a king to move 20ft up the water column to strike a bait depending on the water clarity.

Not the best videos but for kicks and grins....

So here are my two of my favorite rods and one brand new one I bought today  ALL with 16oz of lead.


My Main halibut rod and back up king rod. Typically paired with a shimano TLD 20:
Trevala TVC-58xxh 5'8" Braided line 80 to 200lbs; jig wt 120g -270g; Power extra extra (2X) heavy; Action: Medium fast


My main rod when fishing both halibut and kings. Typically paired with a truth SG:
Trevala TFC-63mh; 6'3"; Braided line 50 to 100lbs; jig wt 110g to 240grams; Power Medium Heavy; Action Medium fast


I just bought this rod today and paired it with a Penn fathom 15LD.  Feels like half the weight of the top rod which already isfarily light rod especially for halibut.
Trevala TVSC-63MH; 6'3"; Braided line 50 to 80lbs; jig wt 168g; Power Medium Heavy; Action Medium Fast

My problem with the rigger is most guys have the rigger behind the seat.  I am in an outback and my shoulder is hooped so reaching back to crank the lever isn't really an option.
I might see if i can mount a smaller scotty lake troller next to me but I wont have room to get the fish in the boat!  Tons of newbie questions...

I've mounted a Scotty Laketroller downrigger on my 13' Trident (a paddle kayak), a Scotty Depthmaster downrigger on my 13' Revolution, and a Cannon Lake-Troll downrigger on my Revolution.  I mounted all three of those downriggers next to my thigh so I can operate them easily and comfortably without changing position in my seat.  If you want to try out downrigger trolling without spending a lot of money, you could buy a Scotty Laketroller, which is easy to mount on a kayak, but is a primitive downrigger which doesn't have a brake, which only has a hand nut to lock the cable reel, and is only rated to handle a four pound weight, which limits how deep you can troll.  My favorite downrigger is the Cannon Lake-Troll, which has an excellent brake which provides finger-tip control over the speed that your weight is dropping, and which can easily handle an eight pound weight.  I routinely troll down to about 180 feet with my Cannon Lake-Troll.  In addition, it's real easy to shorten the boom on a Cannon Lake-Troll.

It's easier to mount a downrigger on a pedal kayak than it is to mount a downrigger on a paddle kayak, because on a paddle kayak you need to mount a downrigger where it won't interfere with paddling, and you need to use a small downrigger like the Scotty Laketroller.  You can mount a bigger and easier to use downrigger on a pedal kayak, and it's easier to operate a downrigger on a pedal kayak, because you have both hands free to play with your fishing gear.  It's real easy to mount a downrigger on an Outback, because Outbacks have large flat areas on top of their gunwales.  it's harder to mount a downrigger on a Revolution because the gunwales of Revolutions are narrow, with no flat areas on which a downrigger can be mounted.  For a description of how I mounted a Cannon Lake-Troll downrigger on my Revolution, and why I set up my Revolution for downrigger trolling the way I did, see http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=12575.0 .  For a description of how I mounted a Scotty Laketroller downrigger on my 13’ Trident,and why I mounted it that way, see http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg128141#msg128141 .

Hi Pete, thanks for the response.  That post is exactly what I was looking for - the link you sent was a really good explanation of how to mount a rigger. 

Oddly enough I have my rod holder and electronics set up the same way / location as you in my outback.  I was thinking the correct location for the rigger would be thigh position as well as its much easier to work the depths and would be easy on the shoulder to crank up.

I live in Scotty country - the factory is on Vancouver Island, but I think I will go with a Cannon which is blasphemy in these parts.  I will have to take a good look at the Outback to figure out how to mount the Cannon.  When you mention a track for mounting - are you thinking a baseplate that could slide into a track would be strong enough to hold the rigger?  I could just use the cup holder setup like you did, but there are some other options I think to make it easier, just worried about the torque the baseplate would put on the gunwale.

Do you really get an 8lb ball to 180'? 

What year is your Outback, wishiniwasfishin?  I suggest that you consider mounting a section of gear track on the bottom of the tray next to your right thigh, and use it to hold a rectangle of HDPE plastic (what cutting boards are made out of, sometimes sold in bulk under the name "Starboard") down onto the flat surface on the gunwale created by the lips of the tray.  I suggest that you bolt the quick-release base for the downrigger onto the rectangle of plastic, so you can quickly remove the downrigger from the gunwale of your kayak and drop it into your front hatch when you're on the water; I wish I had done that with my Cannon downrigger base, rather than bolting the downrigger directly to the base. You can make "T" bolts to which go in the gear track to hold the downrigger down onto the gunwale in the manner described in http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=13167.msg144750#msg144750 , or you can buy them from YakAttack.  The downrigger doesn't need to be centered on the gunwale; you will probably want to mount it somewhat towards the outside of the kayak to provide more clearance for your thigh.  A downrigger base constructed in this manner will be rock solid and will do an excellent job of resisting the stress you put on the downrigger when cranking up the weight.

Do you really get an 8lb ball to 180'?

Yes, I troll at 180 feet routinely at 1 t0 1.5 mph.  How deep you can troll with a downrigger and still see your weight on your fish finder depends on (a) the width of the cone of your sonar, (b) the size of your weight, (c) how fast you are trolling, (d) the kind of downrigger cable you are using, and (e) the amount of drag created by your lure.  If I troll faster than 1.5 mph, or use a high drag lure such as a Flatfish or Kwikfish, my weight will get pulled back out of the cone of my sonar at lesser depths. I exchanged the steel downrigger cable which came with my Cannon Lake-Troll for Scotty Spectra low-drag braided downrigger line, which eliminates the irritating hum created by steel downrigger cable, and has somewhat lower drag than steel downrigger cable.

Double Deep Six will get you down to about 100 ft pulling a dodger and bait.  Actual depth will vary with speed, line diameter and drag of your terminal rigging.  DD6 is the standard trolling method for kayak salmon out of Eureka and Trinidad.  Also popular is trooching a herring behind a 6-8oz banana weight.  OThers do use canonball sinkers on release (I would use a beer can filled to desired weight with quickcrete and a wire loop left out the mouth for an attachment point instead of lead, its way cheaper).  Downriggers are the least popular among the kayak crowd here.

Keep track of how many pulls out you are with the DD6 and when you find the fish go back there. With my setup its roughly 1 pull per foot so if I hear of someone catching salmon at 70ft on the wire, i'll go out 70 pulls, a pull being roughly an arm's length (literally feed the line out by grabbing it near the reel and pulling it toward the first eye on the rod).