Heavy flies, Down low

If you've followed my journey, I am trying very hard to pretend to be surf12foot and start using a fly rod for, well... anything in the sea.

When the weather permits, I've been trying to learn to cast a heavy fly on a heavy sinking line using a 9'0" 8/9wt rod without whacking the back of my head.  I was getting reasonably good at it, then - realizing I'm not going to be standing up in the kayak - tried it kneeling down and everything went straight to heck on me, right away.

I don't have the same leverage when I cast, and with the Belgian cast I've been working-on, the fly and line slap the water on the back cast.

What is the proper way to cast a fly rod from a kayak?

Okay, I don't care if it's proper or not, how do you cast heavy flies and heavy line from a kayak?  I'll settle for that.

What's 'proper' will be debated.  So, this a only my stab at it.  Assuming you're casting a short head and shooting line, here are some general thoughts and a specific cast you can try to see if it works for you.

1) Stick with some type of water-bourne anchor cast.  Your idea for a Belgian is good in that it keeps the fly low, but it still requires more precise timing than one of the water-bourne anchor casts.

2) Among the water-bourne anchor casts, stick with one that doesn't lay the line horizontally during the set, like a double Spey, a snap C/T, etc.  The bow/stern of a kayak presents an obstacle and if you try to lay the line behond them, you may find it puts the fly too far away and it doesn't resurface as well when you make your D-loop stroke, giving you too much stick and a failed cast.

Specifically, I'd recommend a Perry Poke.  Being a water-bourne anchor, the timing is more forgiving, you can do one with all of your line on one side of the bow/stern, making it easier to set the fly one rod length away, and then a normal D loop stroke should resurface your tip & fly to minimize stick.

good luck,
Slime

Thank you.

What's 'proper' will be debated.  So, this a only my stab at it.  Assuming you're casting a short head and shooting line, here are some general thoughts and a specific cast you can try to see if it works for you.

1) Stick with some type of water-bourne anchor cast.  Your idea for a Belgian is good in that it keeps the fly low, but it still requires more precise timing than one of the water-bourne anchor casts.

2) Among the water-bourne anchor casts, stick with one that doesn't lay the line horizontally during the set, like a double Spey, a snap C/T, etc.  The bow/stern of a kayak presents an obstacle and if you try to lay the line behond them, you may find it puts the fly too far away and it doesn't resurface as well when you make your D-loop stroke, giving you too much stick and a failed cast.

Specifically, I'd recommend a Perry Poke.  Being a water-bourne anchor, the timing is more forgiving, you can do one with all of your line on one side of the bow/stern, making it easier to set the fly one rod length away, and then a normal D loop stroke should resurface your tip & fly to minimize stick.

good luck,
Slime

I recognize the words, but you're sure talkin' some funny language there...   

(just kidding ya, of course)

I don't have a clue how to whip a fly swatter rod, but if you are using heavy flies and sinking line for say bottom fish, why not just give it a flick to clear the kayak, and let it drop down to the fish?   

Is the point of proper casting to get the fly to represent a real bug that some ocean fish will attack similar to how  a river trout/steelhead would? 




Other than salmon or ocean run trout, I figure bottom fish wouldn't be too picky. 

INSAYN, the purpose of casting a fly rod is to look cool and sophisticated, isn't it?  It's a fly rod, for pity's sake, so why would I want to carry a fly rod but fish like a common gear-hauler?   

Actually, my thoughts are - with absolutely zero experience to lean on - that flinging the fly a ways from me would allow the fly to sink along an arc and appear to be something a fish might want to munch, because, in the end, I'm just throwing a hook in fancy furs and feathers, with very little action and not much flash.

You're right that I'm not looking for a long distance cast for bottom fish, but I am trying for a little more distance than just clearing the hull.  In thirty feet of water, I'd like to try casting twenty five feet - I think - and for fish that are nearer to the surface, I believe I'd want to get even farther from the kayak.

But it's just as probable that I could get out there, looking all Brad Pitt-ish ("A River Runs Through It") only to find that all I'll ever need to do is drop the fly over the side and jig it.  It's not like fishing for bonefish on the Florida flats, is it?  Not that I'd know, since I haven't done that, either...

Slime, I don't think the Poke is going to work for me.  I have trouble with spey/skagit casts using a single-handed rod when I'm standing comfortably on shore, well-balanced, on firm ground.      I see "yard sale" written all over the Perry Poke.

I'm even a bit skeptical about my ability to adapt a water haul to kayak fishing.

If the winds would just drop below 20 knots, I'd launch into the lake and fiddle around until I can get a reasonable cast and keep both ears intact.

Thanks, all.     

Seems to me since the "ideal" rockfish strategy is to drop off the deep edge of a ledge any "casting" strategy is just asking to snag on the rocks and wreck your expensive fly rod. When in Rome...

Seems to me since the "ideal" rockfish strategy is to drop off the deep edge of a ledge any "casting" strategy is just asking to snag on the rocks and wreck your expensive fly rod. When in Rome...

Thank you.  I freely admit that this will be a first for me, but I'd hope the fly rod isn't in any greater jeopardy from snags when bottom fishing in the sea than it is from snags when fishing for salmon in a river - if I rig the leaders correctly, they should break away before my rod.

It's far from an expensive rod - I'm cheap - but I'd still hate to snap it if I can avoid doing so.  I'll have a lot better understanding of technique before I try using it for rockfish the first time.

And it's not too late to stop the madness and stay with my regular gear...

Thanks for answering.  It's a good comment/warning, and I appreciate it.

INSAYN, I was a bit flippant answering you earlier, and I shouldn't have been.  The flies are not usually great baitfish imitators, although some look a lot like sand lances.  They don't have much built-in action, and it was my thoughts that a fly sinking along an arc would resemble how a baitfish heads for cover, and something might want to nibble on it.

I really don't know if that makes a difference for rockfish or ling hanging near the bottom.  It's close to how I'd fish for salmon in a deep river hole using a weighted, sinking fly, but I might be over-thinking it - which I am prone to do - and would be wasted effort for a rockfish.

For fish near the surface it would be different.  I'd cast-and-strip to put action into the fly, and for that, I'd need to know how to cast somewhere in the general direction of the fish.  Eventually, I need to learn to cast a fly into the ocean from a kayak.

It's all new to me.  Ask me about using a fly rod for trout and jack in the rivers and I can at least act like I don't need a map to find the parts of me that I sit on.  Fly fishing in the sea?  I haven't one iota more knowledge about how to do it than you, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn I know less about it than you already know.

Seems to me since the "ideal" rockfish strategy is to drop off the deep edge of a ledge any "casting" strategy is just asking to snag on the rocks and wreck your expensive fly rod. When in Rome...

That's true of Lingcod and cabezon but rockfish will suspend in large schools.

Tinker,  what I have learned over the years about rock fish is that if they are there and biting, just about anything will work.  They are not that picky.  Same with lings and cabs, only they are usually on the bottom, so you generally need to get your presentation down to them.  They will bite near the surface on occasion, so fly fishing isn't a complete disregard. 

However, if there is a storm coming or going the barometric pressure may give them lock jaw on just about anything put in front of them.   

If you like a challenge, load a Shakespeare kiddie pole with at least 10# braid (I use 20#) and tie on anything from 1/8oz to 8oz and drop the jig over the side of the kayak.  Jig as needed, and reel in your prize.  At first I was skeptical on fishing with these tiny kiddie poles, but after a few years doing so, I really love fishing with them more than my traditional bottom fishing rods.  At $10-$15 they are way too fun not to promote em! 

Insayn is neglecting to mention his great success with kiddie poles is because he never grew up, his toy box just got WAY more expensive. 

I have a pair of three-foot Daiwa Triforce rods - one's for spinning and the other's a casting rod.  They're not Barbie's, and they aren't for kids, and they aren't ice-fishing rods... I have no guess what Daiwa intended them for, they're just strange, stubby little things.

I'll make sure I always have them with me, for when I destroy my fly rod.  I'd go for a Barbie rod as my backup, but I like the extra length of these Daiwa's for making longer casts...   

When I see INSAYN using the entire Barbie kit - rod and reel, tackle box, and landing net - I'll think he hasn't quite grown up.  Until then, I believe I'll just think of him as "complicated".

Sorry for not chiming in sooner, but the waves at Sunset Bay have been calling so life gets put on hold while I pick and choose my surf time. Ok lets address this problem or minor hiccup? First, yes I do sit and cast and if the fly is heavy enough its more or less a lob cast that's not to pretty. I know the weather sucks right now for getting outside and to try but try this. Get a nice day and haul the kayak out in the yard and sit in it and practice casting don't go overboard with the casting do like a dozen casts and stop and take a break for awhile. This is all new to your body and it's going to fight you on this till it gets use to it. Your working 4-5wt. heavier line so it's going to be just like when you pick up a 5wt the first time(remember that night mare) Second, don't force your casting stroke (if you do everything will go to hell in a hand basket fast) relax and slow down your cast, your not throwing a size 12 Adams fly. You need to let the heavy fly catch up with the fly line (remember that the fly line does all the work the fly is just along for the ride).Third, since your sitting  you just lost about 4 to 5 ft. of height try stopping the back stroke a little short. We're not going for distance just getting it out there the distance will come soon enough. You can try a haul cast to relieve  some shoulder pain or angle your cast off the side till you find your sweet spot. Fourth, don't be shy look over your shoulder and see what is going on behind you. The most important rule is take small baby steps, be patient and keep at it.IT WILL COME TO YOU!

Why thank you, Scott.  Since I'm trying to follow in your wake, I appreciate that you leaped in here.

We're still having pretty impressive surf down here.  It's settled some from Tuesday and Wednesday, but only by half, so once again I find myself envying folks North of me...

Looking back over my shoulder will probably help me.  I think I've been casting faster and stronger than I should when I'm kneeling down, closer to the water, convinced that I must if I hope to keep everything in the air.

I hope you got out at Sunset and had some success, and if not success, then had some fun.