How much drag?

Howdy all,

I am trying to refine my Kayak arsenal before I go all spendy on more gear.  Iffin you don't feel like readin, I am trying to figure out what is the appropriate amount of drag a conventional or levelwind reel should be capable of for fish as large a 35+ ling cod or a bigass Nook.

I am focused on getting out onto saltwater to target lings, rocks, salmon, and maybe a Halibut if I have the luck.

I have read through most of the posts that I can find on rod length, action, etc, as well as recommendations re: line strength.

That said, I am trying to figure a couple of things out.  I want to have a few rods to choose from at home - my heavy rod will have to work for sturgeon and other big uns, my momma bear rod will be for salmon and all groundfish, and my baby bear stick will be for everything south of six pounds and 20" (and then there is the ultralight, but that is already in hand).

I am focusing right now on Mama bear, as the Coho season in the ocean is going, Sockeye and jack Chinook are running in the Columbia, and everyone seems to be catching rockfish on their outings.

I have no idea of where to go with Mama bear.  I have a brand spanking new Lamiglas NW Special @ 8'6" with a Shimano Cardiff 301A.  Am I on track here?  The Cardiff can handle 11lbs of drag. Is this Baby bear territory?  I have a feeling that the 8'6" rod on a 12' boat is a little much - and since it is a casting rod, would it work well enough for trolling/jigging/mooching?  Or should I start looking at shorter, stiffer sticks?


Papa Bear is tentatively planned out as a Shimano Trevala with a Torium 30 - is 20lbs max lbs of drag sufficient for Papa bear sized fishies like Sturgeon and Halibut?

And Baby Bear.  Not too concerned with a new Baby bear right now - I have a couple of rods that fit the bill.

Cheers,
Madoc

Starting with papa bear.. a Torium 30 is huge relative to a Trevala rod.  You can easily scale down to the 20 or 16 and still have the same drag.   I guess it depends on how much line capacity you need, using braid will increase that substantially.

If you aren't set on shimano's and want to go lighter the Abu Revo's Toro boasts very high max drags (24 lbs) and are a smaller frame. Here's a review..
http://www.tackletour.com/reviewabugarcia2009reelspre.html

If you would rather take out less expensive gear in the kayak (they have a tendancy to get dunked a bit and don't forget the rod leashes) a simple Uglystick tiger and a Penn conventional reel will work just fine for a papa bear rod.


You're mama bear sounds about right to me, particularly for the salmon, mooching and trolling.   A large ling would be a challenge, but not impossible.  A shorter stouter rod might be nice for jigging heavier lures but those aren't always necessary.

Brian

I agree w/ B. The mama bear setup sounds pretty much the ticket. One thing to remember about kayak fishing w/ concerns to drag is there's only so much we can put to the fish since we're moving along with the when they run. The only time we can really put up some serious resistance is when they're running straight down. And that seldom happens IMO. Outside of butts and tuna but that's not often here in the NW. For any large fish (other than dinos) I set my drag to 8#'s and leave it. I've never felt that I've had to crank it up any more.

On the subject of drag for kayakfishing I like to set all of them at 40% of the lines breaking strength. So for 20# Sufix Performance Braid (my new favorite line) that would be 8#'s of drag.

Z

How does one figure out 40% of drag on a star handle type of drag?   

I have fished for NW species my entire life and I always relied on the adjustable aspect a reels drag system. I don't get  "Setting the drag to X pounds" .  Set it to moderate  tension by pulling off line with your hand.  If needed use your thumb to add drag to the spool when the fish is first on and then adjust drag as needed depending on the fish..  Do you guys use a scale?  Maybe I'm old school and have been missing out? 

 For fish like steelhead/salmon you may adjust it several times during the fight.. for instance, Rolling herring: set soft so you get a good pull down and hooked well before the fish knows what's up, then tightened up to control a fish in traffic then backed off at the net incase of a last ditch run. 

I agree with B and Z...You read forums that recommend everything from 20% to 40% of the line rating...In a kayak however I can't see you ever using much more than 30 pound line at the most...and I never see needing 20 pounds of drag...But that's just me and i'm no expert

I've never actually even put a scale on my drag though...I just set it until it feels right...I know its probably not the best way of doing it but I guess i just don't feel like getting that technical with my drag...I typically tweak the drag while I fight a fish...I don't like my drag to be tight as they get closer to the boat or whatever I am on because if they run 2 feet from the dock the boat whatever and your rod is pointed at the sky they are probably gonna break you off unless you have your drag set really low...that's my personal experience anyways...most of that being from a dock on sharks

I have fished for NW species my entire life and I always relied on the adjustable aspect a reels drag system. I don't get  "Setting the drag to X pounds" .  Set it to moderate  tension by pulling off line with your hand.  If needed use your thumb to add drag to the spool when the fish is first on and then adjust drag as needed depending on the fish..  Do you guys use a scale?  Maybe I'm old school and have been missing out? 

 For fish like steelhead/salmon you may adjust it several times during the fight.. for instance, Rolling herring: set soft so you get a good pull down and hooked well before the fish knows what's up, then tightened up to control a fish in traffic then backed off at the net incase of a last ditch run. 

What he said...

How does one figure out 40% of drag on a star handle type of drag?   

Tie your line to a spring scale. Crank down the drag and reel in until the tip's bent and the scale reads X pounds. Slowly start to back off the drag. When the line slips it's set.

I have fished for NW species my entire life and I always relied on the adjustable aspect a reels drag system. I don't get  "Setting the drag to X pounds" .  Set it to moderate  tension by pulling off line with your hand.  If needed use your thumb to add drag to the spool when the fish is first on and then adjust drag as needed depending on the fish..  Do you guys use a scale?  Maybe I'm old school and have been missing out? 

For fish like steelhead/salmon you may adjust it several times during the fight.. for instance, Rolling herring: set soft so you get a good pull down and hooked well before the fish knows what's up, then tightened up to control a fish in traffic then backed off at the net incase of a last ditch run. 

I feel ya PP but I mostly fish salmon of the DR so setting the drag once and right is pretty critical. I like to have it set so that I know it's not going to snap my line or I'm not going to rip the hook out of the fish's mouth w/ the DR releases.

Outside of that I don't feel that it's necessary but I've found that my hook/land ratio is higher when I set my drag. And just because it's set doesn't mean I won't screw with it later. I dunno, I guess I'm just weird like that. 

Z

When I fished downriggers out of a PB (4 at a time in the salt) I would back the drag just enough to hold minimal  tension (reel engaged, not in freespool) while  I lowered the weight to the desired depth (electric). Then bumped the drag up once I was at desired depth.  I always liked to run downriggers with very light drag, just enough to keep a good bend in the rod while attached to the release. The fish would hook themselves when they popped the release and the forward movement of the boat would help too.  They would pop the rod, it would bounce (coho bounce, chinook not so much ) and then reload and the soft drag would give you some cushion against pulling the hooks out do to the momentum of the boat, rubber snubbers also help with this. Not sure if any of this applies with yak downriggering? Do you freespool while you lower the downrigger weight to the bottom?

I tend to set my drags on the light side, I'm guessing 5-6 pounds, and use my thumb to "adjust" the drag.  On spinning reels I cradle the spool to accomplish the same thing.  I have a pretty good feel for what my gear can take and don't bust off a fish very often.

Heavy drag is over rated.  I used to use the standard 30% of the line breaking stregth.  I would think that anything over 10# would be unweildy on a kayak.  That implies up to 30# line and 30# line is hard to break off.  So there are practical limitations on this stuff.  Trust me on this, I started the salmon shark fight at what I'm guessing to be 15# of drag and I had to back off lest I got pulled over.

-Allen

funny,
have been reading an almost paralell thread on another site, which happened to start out asking about how to set teh drag correctly and avoid birdsnests on conventional baitcasters and the advice has been almost identical as here. set the button clutch 1st, then the star drag if i recall, but you dont need a huge amount ...( sorry very tired, will go back and look later)

one thing i did learn tho, is that i brake wrong when using mine.. pro staffers on that site say to use your thumb on the outside edge of the spool, not on the line itself. even when fighting a fish.. gee looks like i need a braking glove

i wonder if howard mckim had any of these thoughts running thru his mind as he fought that big ol bill fish last year?? [ my drag too tight? etc]   

one thing i did learn tho, is that i brake wrong when using mine.. pro staffers on that site say to use your thumb on the outside edge of the spool, not on the line itself. even when fighting a fish.. gee looks like i need a braking glove

I use conventional reels, mostly without level wind.  I use my left thumb (right hamd wind) to guide the line onto the reel and to add pressure.    I can curl my thumb around the line to add more pressure.  This also means I can keep my hands in position on the rod and reel.

-Allen

Great input so far guys, more to think about.

Side note, I tried my hand at casting using mama bear.  I have never used a baitcasting rig - I understand now what everyone means by "bird's nest."  I need a heck of a lot more practice.  Good thing it is loaded with inexpensive 10lb mono, and that I didn't go overboard by loading it with 20+ braid.

Cheers,
Madoc

Great input so far guys, more to think about.

Side note, I tried my hand at casting using mama bear.  I have never used a baitcasting rig - I understand now what everyone means by "bird's nest."  I need a heck of a lot more practice.  Good thing it is loaded with inexpensive 10lb mono, and that I didn't go overboard by loading it with 20+ braid.

Cheers,
Madoc

IMO ... 20# braid is hard to cast consistently on a conventional reel.  It's too limp.  And birdsnesting with it is a biotch.  I wouldn't start with it.  Getting the hang of it with mono is a good call on your part.

-Allen

I always liked to run downriggers with very light drag, just enough to keep a good bend in the rod while attached to the release. The fish would hook themselves when they popped the release and the forward movement of the boat would help too.  They would pop the rod, it would bounce (coho bounce, chinook not so much ) and then reload and the soft drag would give you some cushion against pulling the hooks out do to the momentum of the boat, rubber snubbers also help with this. Not sure if any of this applies with yak downriggering?

Not as much since three's much less inertia on a kayak. Once the salmon pops the rigger come to a stop pretty fast. And since you're not moving it's much easier for the salmon to get off due to slack line.  To combat that I like the drag a little tighter so that the salmon can run but not too freely. It gives you some precious extra seconds to pull in the slack and make sure that barbless hook stays in place.

Do you freespool while you lower the downrigger weight to the bottom?

When in the salt I put the clicker on and throw it in freespool on the way down. In fresh since small reels don't have a clicker I do the same as you backing down the drag.

Z