Hobie Twist-n-Stow rudder

Why?

On my T13 the rudder simply flips up and stores vertically.  On the Revo the rudder twists up and stows flat.  So what?  In either case where the rudder stows is not usable space and must be kept clear.  In fact, if one were to get picky, the vertical rudder requires less surface space.  The Twist-n-Stow seems overly complicated and much effort seems to go into keeping the system tuned, and it requires more holes in the boat.

This seems to be a solution in search of a problem.  What am I missing?

I like it because there is less surface area for wind.  Also, I build my own kayaks. The twist and stow has everything built in (control attachments etc.) for much less than the price of other brands which means less fabricating for me.  All I need to mount it is a piece of bent aluminum bar (two 90 degree bends) with holes for the rudder pin and two small holes for fastening it to the boat.  I use stainless steel down rigger cable for control cables.  The side to side movement is attached to my foot pedals, and the up/down cables are attached to two plastic handles I pull.  If I purchased a regular rudder, I would have to either purchase the entire kit for $219 or fabricate an attachment that both pivots and allows the up/down pivoting.  The Hobie does all this for $52.95. 

Although everything I said above may only apply to people like me that build their own yaks, I am sure that it could be retrofitted to any brand kayak, especially with an Insayn designed mount.

Just my 2 cents.

- Caig

"Insayn Designs" ...now there's a good name for skunkworks garage-built yak gear! Kicks butt over "Redneck Injuneering."

"Insayn Designs", hmmm... You better trademark that so you can sell it to him.   I like it, it has a ring to it.  Now we just need Zee to come up with the logo artwork.

I like it because there is less surface area for wind. 

??

When I am on the water my rudder is in the water.

"Insayn Designs", hmmm... You better trademark that so you can sell it to him.   I like it, it has a ring to it.  Now we just need Zee to come up with the logo artwork.

Too late. 

INSAYN Designs ®

Well I don't know that it has a lot of great aspects but it does have a few...

1.  It is virtually impossible to destroy when it it is stowed....if you drop it upside down or set it down or whatever it isn't going to break unless you literally drop it at the perfect angle to hit only the rudder (all rudders will break then)

2.  It does not need to be removed for shipping which is nice but not very often does this become an issue...I just went through it though and I am glad it twists and stows lol


It doesn't seem to have alot of problems...not many people complain about them so I ask Why not have a twist and stow rudder...

Now if I didn't have a hobie I wouldn't change my rudder configuration to get a twist and stow that is alot of work for not much gain...

I like it because there is less surface area for wind. 

??

When I am on the water my rudder is in the water.

My boat tracks like an arrow. To reduce drag, I don't always deploy it.   I usually use it in tight areas to assist in turning.  And yes, for those that will point out that you don't need a rudder to turn if you know the proper strokes, I am aware of that and am quite capable at performing said strokes.  However, in very tight areas or while drifting and fishing, the rudder is a very handy way for maneuvering a hard tracking boat.

...

It doesn't seem to have alot of problems...not many people complain about them so I ask Why not have a twist and stow rudder...

...

My OK shipped with the rudder blade off and I installed it, no problem.  I also bought a Hobie large rudder blade and swapped that out.  So if Hobie rudders were shipped sans the blade I doubt any of us would care. 

There seems to be a lot of conversations on various forums about tuning the thing.  I had to adjust the retraction cable to pull up the blade, and the deflection cables to get full deflection.  Also the deployment and retraction mechanism requires 8 holes in the boat, 4 for the cables and 4 for the internal pulley screws, and two T-handles to snag lines.  The use of non-metal cables worries me too.  When will they fail?  How much will they stretch? 

It is a rather cool gizmo, but to me it seems like a solution looking for a problem. 

The use of non-metal cables worries me too.  When will they fail?  How much will they stretch? 

I thought the same thing, that is why I went with stainless steel down rigger cable.  I like the rudder so far.  It seems durable. I dropped the boat on it from about 3 feet off the ground and it did not break.  Another new feature, which I have no intention to upgrade too, is that torqueedo now has a small electric motor and a mount designed for the stow and go rudder.


Only 1899.00

On my first extended trip with the new Revo the Twist-n-Stow sailing rudder failed to deploy.  I can now pull a 6" loop of the deployment cable up from where the cable exits the boat.  Also the cable sheath pulled out of its retainer and now passes across the rear hatch opening.  Looking inside I noticed that the way the myriad of cables are retained is with a pad-eye loop held with only one of the hatch cover screws.  There is a one-screwed pad-eye on each side of the hatch and they have become loose and rotated.

Below is a photo of the padeye.   There are 3 cables held in place on each side of the rear hatch.  The cable sheath seems very short - perhaps it has slipped.

Unfortunately the impressive engineering of the mirage drive is not repeated in the Twist-n-Stow.

I don't get the pad eye thing either, thought they would have changed that by now.I remember having to tighten the hatch screws on my outback when i first got it. I went over it and tightened everything when i got it.

Remember theses things are put together by hourly waged employees, who can be having an "i don't give a f+++  kind of day" and the explosive growth of the industry leads to pushing these boats out faster then QC can keep up.

Sounds like whoever installed the rudder didn't bother to adjust it much. Definetly not a hands off drop in the water and go fishing boat all the time, but once you get everything adjusted properly, it will operate smooth for a good 6 months of hard use and then it's time for another tune-up.

   My AI is an '07 model, and I've had zero problems with my rudder.  I've abused it in just about every way possible, without being irresponsible, and it's held up.  When I first got it, I read up on rudder tuning in order to get that little bit of extra turning radius.  I realize that this tendency is due to my need to learn, investigate and tweak things whenever I get my hands on something new. Before I did anything, I wondered why there was play built in at the factory.  So, I made a few phone calls to the very helpful guys at one of the shops in California, and was advised to leave it as tuned in the factory.  Yes, there is a little less turning radius, but it also keeps the system from over-stressing by allowing enough slack in the system to prevent it from damaging itself in extreme circumstances.  
   When you make fast, hard turns at top speed, and are angling that rudder to it's extreme range, you could be taking it beyond it's intended tolerances.  Frankly, if a typical kayak rudder had as much surface area as a Hobie sailing one, you'd probably see as many or more problems when you "spin-out" at top speed due to the increase in leverage from the wider rudder.  This reminds me of Zee's experience using his rudder when moving backwards with a reversed mirage drive.  He broke the rudder system.
   The longer I have my boat, and the more conditions I fish in, the more commonly I pull the rudder and operate by paddle for the greater maneuverability.  In fact, I spent my last 3 fishing outings without using the rudder or drive at all, primarily due to windy conditions and the need to spin the boat so that I could control my facing quickly and maintian the ability to cast into my fishing spot longer. (It's all about the fishin', right?  ) If my rudder hadn't been laying flat, the weathercocking would have been a significantly greater challenge, especially when you consider the much greater surface area of a sailing rudder.  So, in order to accommodate many different conditions and fishing styles, flat seems better.
   I'm also a fan of the braided dacron that (I believe) is the line used for the controls due to it's durability, longevity, abrasion resistance, ability to be tied in a knot, low cost, ability to be passed through a small diameter hole, resistance to picking up gunk, and near neutral buoyancy.   So, I guess I'm a believer in the engineering put into it.

~edit~
One last thing I can imagine being a concern would be a big rudder sitting upright during a 70mph highway drive and winds that were hitting the vehicle and kayak from an angle.  I'm not an expert in airspeed issues and things, but that's a lot of load.  Laying flat and held down by the bungee eliminates any threat created by windy conditions during transportation.  Seems that the greater surface area of the Hobie rudders in general may have caused the engineers to think it worthwhile to do it this way.

Here is the response from Hobie to my comments on the Revo:

Date:    5/19/2010 6:52 PM
From:    Jason Kardas
Subject: RE: Revolution--customer suggestions

Thanks for your insights and taking the time to give us a comparison between your Revolution and your T13 - we always appreciate hearing from our customers and finding out how our products stack up against the competition.  Feedback is always welcome because we want to know how our products can be improved so that we can try to build new ideas into our product line.

I might be able to explain some of the features and concerns that you mentioned below so that you can better understand where we are coming from.

The twist and stow rudder does have some more complicated movements, but once everything is working properly it is a great system.  The main advantages of the T&S rudder is that it lays flat on the deck and isn't vulnerable to breakage during kayak handling which we found was very common with rudders that are very exposed.  This also allows us to ship the rudder on the kayak from the factory so that the dealer or customer has a boat ready to use right off of the truck.

We have tried other simpler rudder system and they don't seem to function as well as ours when it is held down.  Our Mirage boats are designed to be maneuverable and move at higher speeds, so the rudder has to be held down firmly in position otherwise it can kick up (especially with our kayak sail accessory).

I'm glad to hear that you weren't afraid to put extra lashings on the bow to suit your needs.  This is something that I do as well on long touring trips  We tend to keep the decks as clean as possible to cut down on clutter and potential snags for fishing hooks.

I have heard comments on the rod holders being too far back.  They are in the position that they are in for a reason.  The Revolution has become our "cross trainer" model and appeals to a lot of people who love to paddle and peddle.  When paddling and using the rod holders, you have to locate them a littler further back so that your elbows don't hit your tackle.  If you want to get your rods closer to you, I would recommend getting a RAM space saver mount and put it behind you so that you can install a RAM tube to your liking.

I hope that I answered any questions or concerns that you might have.  Please email me if you need any further information.  Thanks again for your feedback.

Sincerely,

Jason Kardas
Engineering and Design
Hobie Cat Company
4925 Oceanside BLVD
Oceanside, CA  92056
jkardas@hobiecat.com
www.hobiecat.com

-----Original Message-----
From: notifications@web.hobiecat.com [mailto:notifications@web.hobiecat.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 1:27 PM
To: Karen Steele
Subject: - Hobie Contact Form - Kayaks

Greetings,

I recently purchased a Hobie Mirage Revolution fishing version from Austin Canoe & Kayak in Austin, TX (turbo fins and sailing rudder too).  I also have an Ocean Kayak Trident 13 Angler. 

After playing with the Revo for a while I cannot understand the advantages of the Twist-n-Stow rudder.  It is a complex system, requiring an additional 8 holes in the boat, 4 for pulleys, 2 for cockpit handles, 2 for stern cables.  The rudder on my T13 stores vertically.  The rudder on my Revo stores flat.  In either case the extreme stern can not be used for storage.  The Twist-n-Stow requires a lot of tweaking and maintenance as evidenced by the volume of posts concerning it on the Hobie forums and other forums.  I had to adjust my own to get reliable deployment, stowing, and operation.  Hobie itself publishes 3 documents on the Twist-n-Stow.  If run aground the T13 rudder simply flips up.  If the Twist-n-Stow is run aground serious damage is possible as the design does not give except in one direction.

While the Twist-n-Stow is a cool little gizmo, it appears to me to be a solution in search of a problem.  Someone became enamored with the technology and sacrificed functionality.  Am I missing something?

Otherwise the Revo is an okay fishing platform, though there is not much storage space.  Mostly this is due to the space required by the mirage drive which is a fair trade-off.  Another 1/2" of width to the gunwales would make installing Scotty compact deck mounts easier.  I installed a transverse bar using the Hobie Side Kick mounts and running just aft of the mast mount.  On this bar is mounted the fishfinder/GPS and a Scotty rod holder. 

The live well is poorly shaped sloping up toward the stern.  Fish/crab in the live well would easily slide out.  I think the back of the live well would be much improved with a steeper, deeper design like that of the T13.  The T13 live well can actually be used to store one's catch.

The Revo's stock rear hatch is nice.  I installed a rear hatch in my T13.

The Revo rod holders are too far back to be useful. 

The T13 scupper transducer mount position is awesome.  One of the Revo live well scuppers should be usable for such a purpose if a depression was molded around it on the bottom. 

The Revo front hatch is large and fits both of the tires from my full sized Wheelez cart.  Just a bit wider and/or longer and I could also fit the frame.

The Revo bow lacks deck lines and/or bungees making lashing anything to the bow impossible.  It is a lot of wasted space.  I installed a bungee lacing system which extends over the front hatch and gets rid of the stock bungee hatch hold-downs which are nearly impossible to grab.  This lacing holds my Wheelez frame and a large fish bag.

While I find much to prefer in my T13 over the Revo, there is no getting around the utility of the mirage drive.  Being able to fish hands-free is a great advantage. 

Thank you.

!@#$%^&*%$!!

Out on Puget Sound yesterday I had the rudder cable slip its half-assed pad-eye attachment, introducing a slug of cable slack, so it was randomly flopping about, frequently sending the boat careening off in a random direction.  I did discover the drive with the flippers vertical make a nice skeg compensating somewhat for the errant rudder while paddling. 

Have I mentioned just how much I despise the Twist-n-Stow rudder, its engineering, and its execution?  Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy.  Now I need to replace the half-assed pad-eye attachments with some sort of closed loop.