testing boat (paddler) limits

Interesting pics Bill.  The top ones give the appearance of negative rocker, but your rope measurement shows it isn't.

-Allen

As Fungunnin says, that yak looks pushed in.  Indeed, it looks pushed in in 2 places, very similar to  oil canning caused by saddles or by straps cinched too tightly.  That being said, the racks on that car you have it on don't align to the indentations.  Have you always had it on those particular racks?  Or have you used others.

I've had the 4-Runner longer than the Trident, so the racks have always been in that position.  When carrying the kayak on the 4-Runner, I always carry it upside down, resting on the gunwales.  The negative rocker on my kayak is less smooth and regular than the negative rocker on my friend's kayak, which is newer and has had less use.  So I may be getting some oil canning in the negative rocker area, where the bottom of the kayak is flatter and thus more susceptible to oil canning.  But I still think it's clear that the negative rocker is designed into the kayak.

But I still think it's clear that the negative rocker is designed into the kayak.

So how do you explain Bill's Trident's lack of negative rocker?

-Allen

But I still think it's clear that the negative rocker is designed into the kayak.

So how do you explain Bill's Trident's lack of negative rocker?
-Allen

Bill's Trident is a 2013.  It's newer than my Trident or my friend's Trident.  They probably changed the mold.

But I still think it's clear that the negative rocker is designed into the kayak.

So how do you explain Bill's Trident's lack of negative rocker?
-Allen

Bill's Trident is a 2013.  It's newer than my Trident or my friend's Trident.  They probably changed the mold.

They did not.

-Allen

But I still think it's clear that the negative rocker is designed into the kayak.

So how do you explain Bill's Trident's lack of negative rocker?-Allen

Bill's Trident is a 2013.  It's newer than my Trident or my friend's Trident.  They probably changed the mold.

They did not.-Allen

Prod those guys from Ocean Kayak!  I want to hear what they have to say about these issues.

What about "Shrinkage"?

If someone in the south sound wants to string and measure the bottom of my 08 T15 to help figure this out, let me know and I'll tell you where to find it. Until this year it was always hung deck down on straps under a carport roof or transported deck down on foam pads on top my F150 and secured with ratchet straps. It never got a lot of use because I was always gone so long on road trips.

Right now its hung on its side inside a garage.

[WR]

Skidplate's comments got me thinking, so, I want to play heretic here a bit. Mods, if you want to move this to a separate thread, please do so.

I think the sport in general is being derailed, becoming too polarized or regionally specific, by the makers. Case in point is the Jackson Family of boats, which seem to be geared towards the mostly broad, slow, rivers of Appalachia or the bass crazed of the southeast. Really, how many of these boats have relevance on west coast or western waters, where there are higher water speeds, rougher obstacles and bigger waters on the shorelines? Looking at Native, this seems true of their recent releases too. Having said that, let's not forget Jackson's history is one of whitewater boats designed by a champion white water competitor, who trained at the national center in North Carolina.

Wildy (Wilderness Systems) seems to be trying to address some of this, with the introduction of the Thresher for offshore and the revisions of the Tarpon and Ride series to fix some inherent small design flaws and broaden their utility. I suspect their "Jeep", the Commander, is a good compromise between canoe, kayak, large flat water and flowing streams or rivers. 

OK, on the other hand, seems to have been relegated to 2nd place by it's owners, Johnson Outdoors, in favor of Old Towne. The Tridents, Scramblers, Prowlers and Ultra's are and were decently designed and utilitarian boats that did a lot of things well, but weren't always stellar, and still have a solid loyal following.

Liquid Logic, a predominately whitewater boat maker, offers their Duece, and Deuce Coupe, which are designed as whitewater SOTS, and could potentially be the answer many are looking for in a river kayak, but I'm not sure that they realize they aren't "there" just yet if they want to reach the kayak fishing river communities. Both boats are nice, have seen them up close at the paddling Festival in Charleston SC both in '12 and again this year, but capacity seems geared to the smaller paddler who doesn't fish. Then again, maybe they don't care about marketing to river fishermen.

in the past 7 years, we've seen the decline of, and in the case of Cobra and Malibu, the disappearance of, major players who brought us good, solid boats that we could plop into a lake or river, then take off with on a weekend and do things like participate in ORC or AOTD. This could be from trying to provide too large of a selection, poor marketing and distributorship policies, or over specialization. This last sounds redundant, but think about it. It's not, really.

This is supposed to be a low cost, easy entry, sport. Which means you need to demo the hell out of all the available offerings you can, learn to paddle before you peddle, use the rods and reels you already have, and make most of your investments in safety gear. These were the lessons I learned at the sides of FFTW, bsteves, spot, polepole, and a few others who aren't with us any more.

Have the design companies or designers, failed us? Possibly. Have we become too demanding of specialization to fit our own personal needs instead of as a community?  Could be.

Should we seriously concerned that not every boat we buy in good faith and use a lot truly conforms to the original mold? Eehhh, maybe. But healthy discussion on whether or not a guys boat might or might not be oil canned or didn't come with the right amount of rocker, that's the good side of our community. 

From OK.

They don’t have negative rocker.  They are designed to be good off-shore boats with enough volume in the bow to make it easier than most boats to go through the surf zone.
 
A person could create negative rocker in a boat by tying it on their car/truck improperly…
 
They are checked for the correct rocker when they are produced with a custom measuring setup.

-Allen

From OK.

They don’t have negative rocker.  They are designed to be good off-shore boats with enough volume in the bow to make it easier than most boats to go through the surf zone.
 
A person could create negative rocker in a boat by tying it on their car/truck improperly…
 
They are checked for the correct rocker when they are produced with a custom measuring setup.

-Allen

BOOOOOOOM!! 

If you compare the pictures which I posted earlier in this thread of my friend's fairly unused 13' Trident with the pictures of my more heavily used 13' Trident, you will see that they both have 3/4" of negative rocker along the central section of the keel.  I think you can conclude one of two things from these pictures:

1.  For a number of years, Ocean Kayak designed the 13' Trident to have negative rocker, in order to produce a kayak which tracks well without a rudder.  The wide flat section in the center of the bottom may have been intended to give the kayak more initial stability.  The 13' Trident has been a very popular fishing kayak and handles open ocean conditions well, so this negative rocker isn't bad.  However, kayakers need to appreciate that 13' Tridents with negative rocker turn slowly, and are better suited for use in open water than for use in situations which require rapid maneuvering, such as when running rivers with a lot of rocks and/or holes.

2.  Ocean Kayak designed the 13' Trident to have a flat keel or very slightly positive rocker, and checks all of the kayaks after they are manufactured with a "custom measuring setup" to be sure that the hull conforms to Ocean Kayak's design specifications, but that the kayaks consistently deform, even when new and little used, and develop 3/4" of negative rocker in their central section.  This would be bad, and would indicate that there are significant defects in the design, materials, and/or manufacturing processes used to produce the 13' Trident.  I have owned and used rotomolded kayaks for 30 years, and have never seen a model of plastic kayak which consistently deforms after it comes out of the mold, although I should point out that almost all whitewater kayaks have foam walls which reduce the extent to which the bottom of the kayaks can collapse or oil can.  The good news would be that even if 13' Tridents are consistently deforming after they are manufactured, even after the deformation they are still quite good fishing kayaks.

If you compare the pictures which I posted earlier in this thread of my friend's fairly unused 13' Trident with the pictures of my more heavily used 13' Trident, you will see that they both have 3/4" of negative rocker along the central section of the keel.  I think you can conclude one of two things from these pictures:

1.  Ocean Kayak designed the 13' Trident to have negative rocker, in order to produce a kayak which tracks well without a rudder.  The wide flat section in the center of the bottom may have been intended to give the kayak more initial stability.  The 13' Trident has been a very popular fishing kayak and handles open ocean conditions well, so this negative rocker isn't bad.  However, kayakers need to appreciate that the kayak turns slowly, and is better suited for use in open water than for use in situations which require rapid maneuvering, such as when running rivers with a lot of rocks and/or holes.

I do NOT think one could conclude the above.  How can you, when the factory just told you that it isn't the case?

2.  Ocean Kayak designed the 13' Trident to have a flat keel or very slightly positive rocker, and checks all of the kayaks after they are manufactured with a "custom measuring setup" to be sure that the hull conforms to Ocean Kayak's design specifications,  but that the kayaks consistently deform, even when new and little used, and develop 3/4" of negative rocker in their central section.  This would be bad, and would indicate that there are significant defects in the design, materials, and/or manufacturing processes used to produce the 13' Trident.  I have owned and used rotomolded kayaks for 30 years, and have never seen a model of plastic kayak which consistently deforms after it comes out of the mold.  The good news would be that even if 13' Tridents are consistently deforming after they are manufactured, even after the deformation they are still quite good fishing kayaks.

I do NOT think that one could conclude the above either.  You have like 2 data points, neither of which you can positively rule improper usage by the user.  In fact I pointed out a double hump on your kayak which is indicative of improper strapping, and you can see that on your friends kayak as well.  And I already said, my T13 didn't have negative rocker.  And Bill showed a picture of his not having negative rocker.  So really, what do the "facts" tell us here?

Is it really that hard to just say, "I was wrong"?   

-Allen

In surfboard design, rocker only affects the front and rear ~1/3 of the board.  In many cases, you'll have a lot of nose rocker, a little tail rocker and then be concave thru the mid section.  The concave increases acceleration and top speed.

I wonder if OK uses a similar approach.

-Mark-

Allen, I stand by my two options: either Ocean Kayak is not being entirely frank about the design of the 13' Trident, or some 13' Tridents are significantly deforming after they are manufactured.  And I don't think the negative rocker can be attributed to "improper strapping."  When I picked up my Trident from the dealer, I noticed that it had negative rocker, and I have always carried it upside-down (resting on its gunwales) on my vehicle.

Let's get some more data:  Those of you who own 13' Tridents, what year was your Trident manufactured, and does it have positive rocker, a flat keel, or negative rocker?

And because you are sponsored and supported by Ocean Kayak, I'll again emphasize that I think that the 13' Trident is an excellent fishing kayak, but one that tracks better than it turns.