Rudder or not.

I'd actually bet the Prowler 13 is going to be a little faster than the Trident 13... the new Trident has a slightly wider hull.

My mistake (typo).. I meant to compare the Prowler 13 to the Trident 15 as per Merlin's previous post. 

I'd actually bet the Prowler 13 is going to be a little faster than the Trident 13... the new Trident has a slightly wider hull.

Not so sure about this one.  The P13 actually is pretty rockered compared to the P15.  That slows it down a bit.  Now I'm not sure what the T13 shape will be, but ...

-Allen

Rudders - always a good topic of debate. I've never been much of a fan. More weight, more things to break, and not as solid of a platform for my feet to brace against. Also, in most conditions, I've found combinations of boat edging and paddle strokes to stay on path without too much additional effort. With that said, I used one this spring on trip, and while I didn't use it much for paddling, but it was nice for holding position while drifting so I could take pictures. I've also thought it might come in handy for positioning while drifting & fishing, but not so much that I've gotten around to installing one.

As for boats, I love the Prowler 13. It was the first sot I liked, and still has been my favorite design to date. Nice layout, good maneuverability, and glides well. I've been paddling the Trident 15 this summer, and I like it, but I'd go back to a Prowler 13 without a doubt. It just suits me very well. I'm very curious to see how the new Trident 13 & 11 turn out. I like the new features, but the wider width and new hull design...well, like I said, I'm a big fan of the P13 design, so we'll see.


Brian

And for the record ... I don't do rudders.

-Allen

 ThreeWeight you got a prowler 13 for $650? Was that a long time ago, was it a big sale, or does sportsmens just have the best prices on the planet? I have not seen a prowler 13 for less then $800. I would buy the yak in a heart beat if I could find a new prowler for $650.

The Sportsman's Warehouse in Clackamas (Portland burb) had a bunch of 2007 model OK boats they put on clearance in Feb or March.  I first got a Big Game in March for $650, then in late April I got a Prowler 13 for my wife for the same price.  Last time I was in there (a month or so ago) the number of OK boats was dwindling, but they still had a straw colored Big Game and an older model boat (spacing on the name) for sale.

I understand other Sportsmans Warehouse stores were doing the same thing.  Might be worth calling around to a few and seeing what they have.

 Thanks ThreeWeight, I will check that out.

I just picked up a 2007 P15 at rei.com's outlet for 669.93. They will deliver it free to your local REI store. I know the P15 isn't as well liked as the P13, but for that price, it'll do nicely. 

As to the original discussion, I like the rudder on my Necky for drifting, and if I'm really getting kicked around by the wind on a long paddle, but most of the time I don't use it. It's one of those things that is really nice to have available when you need it, but you don't need it all the time.

I know the P15 isn't as well liked as the P13, but for that price, it'll do nicely. 

Not at all.  I'll take a P15 over a P13 any day.  Not that there is anything wrong with a P13, just slightly different.

-Allen

I was in the Clackamas Sportsmans Warehouse the other day...  all the clearance boats are gone, save for one lonely looking OK Drifter.  I think this was the boat that pre-dated the Big Game as the work van type platform.  I think it was 650ish.

Bumping this up again... today I came to see the utility of a rudder.  Trolling a salmon spinner behind a 2 oz egg weight, in a 10-15 mph wind with stronger gusts, incoming tide.  Trolling uphill into the wind and tide, I was having a hard time holding course with a good deal of extra effort.  Trolling downhill, the wind kept pushing me off to one side, require paddle strokes that made me troll a little faster than I would have liked.  Over four hours, the extra work really wore me out.  Seems like a rudder would have been handy here.

There was some steady wind this weekend at Hagg lake which produced quite a bit of weathercocking on both Insayin's and my yak.  I noticed that Insayin had to work quite a bit harder to keep a straight path, while I was able to drop my rudder and just paddle occasionally, maintaining my trolling speed and tracking staight as an arrow.

Sad thing is, I'm so use to compensating for weathercocking with paddle strokes and edging that the thought of using my  rudder didn't even enter into my mind until Insayin asked about my rudder lol, then I dropped it and it was really a nice luxury to have.

I will hopefully be buying my new yak in about 4 weeks (fingers crossed), and I am still debating on if I need a rudder or not.
  So I was hoping that some of you that have some experience with or with out a rudder could give me some input. Are they worth the money? Will I be fighting to stay on a line if I don't have one?

 My main attraction to Kayak fishing is being out on the big blue....just thought I would put that in there in-case it makes a difference.

Jesse

I know this post is old, but I hear this question all the time.
I've had sea kayaks with rudders, with skegs, and nothing at all.
You don't need a rudder. Rudders are for people who don't want to learn how to properly drive a kayak. Rudders create drag in the water and slow you down/make you work more, and they cause windage, and they break.

The other thing in closed deck kayaks, is that the rudder is controlled by pushing the pedals in the cockpit. The pedals slide on a rail.

Having a sliding footpeg rather than a fixed one, surrenders your ability to solidly brace your feet against the pegs, which means you are more apt to lose balance in rough water, or fall out of the boat while rolling or bracing.

When people who are learning kayaking learn to stear with a rudder, they become dependent on the rudder rather than their strokes or boat handling skills. What happens then is that the rudder will break at the time when you need it the most.

Instead of you having the rudder as a bonus, you are now rudderless, and unable to control the boat with strokes & edging. SOL as I like to say.

Unfortunately, rudders have developed for the North American kayak market...along with super huge cockpits....a testament to our laziness.

You can turn the longest kayak in the world around a 90 degree corner by utilizing "edging". This is yet another reason to add thighstraps to a sit-on-top. To edge a closed deck kayak, or a s-o-t with thighstraps, lift with the thigh in the direction you want to turn, and push down with the other. Keep your torso within the perimeter of the boat as it tilts, and you will find the kayak turning with just forward momentum, and a little edge.

I have a OK Prowler Trident 15, and it edges & carves turns like a champ. With an inside lowbrace turn, it will turn 180 degrees with one stroke on edge.

if you combine an edge with a turning stroke or brace, you will complete effortless sharp turns.

You can also hold your course in a tail wind or cross wind/current by edging towards the wind/current.

I don't want to blab forever about this, but I could.

I'd like to encourage everyone who paddles a kayak to take some basic skills lessons. You'd be amazed how much a few little things can change your paddling world.

We just got an HD video camera at the shop, and will be filming little instructional segments on topics such as this to post at http://www.aldercreek.com and on my blog http://www.kayakangler.blogspot.com

-Jason

There was some steady wind this weekend at Hagg lake which produced quite a bit of weathercocking on both Insayin's and my yak.  I noticed that Insayin had to work quite a bit harder to keep a straight path, while I was able to drop my rudder and just paddle occasionally, maintaining my trolling speed and tracking staight as an arrow.

Sad thing is, I'm so use to compensating for weathercocking with paddle strokes and edging that the thought of using my  rudder didn't even enter into my mind until Insayin asked about my rudder lol, then I dropped it and it was really a nice luxury to have.

And your rudder made a great fish hook holder, too!   

Jason is right. A few paddle lessons are worth their weight in gold. I my opinion, lessons are more valuable than a carbon fiber paddle.

 But having a rudder to fish with is a whole different ball game. For holding your position while drifting or at anchor while freeing your hands for other stuff (like fishing), a rudder is a reeeally nice thing.

 Sure you could hit a one handed sweep now and again to correct your position, but that's going to make a bit of noise no matter how dainty your entry is and edging only works when your moving. At anchor, you could stick your foot in to adjust your swing. But you'd best have some serious neoprene socks.

 I didn't have a rudder until I got the Hobie and now I think it's the cat's pajamas (why are cat pajamas a good thing?). I used to use a wooden paddleball paddle to make little corrections while drifting. Although it was another piece of gear to lose, it was easier to swing (less cumbersome) than my paddle. It also served well to administer the wood shampoo (whacking the fish).

 But the Hobie is the antithesis of paddling. Besides the pedals, the rudder is controlled by hand and the paddle is relegated to shallow water and reverse.

So does that make me a North American lazy wuss who can no longer paddle in a straight line with a cockpit so big that it covers the whole deck (SOT's)?

Yep.

But it sure fish's well. Which, BTW, is the reason I'm in the boat in the first place. 
I don't think you really need a rudder (other than the Hobie), but it's good to have in a lot of fishing situations.

(and I can still hold a course while paddling as well as any drunken sailor)