Rudder or not.

I got the prowler 15 with the rudder because i thought it would make holding a line on a drift easier.

i used it the first time, and never again. i guess because i am so used to using my blade as a rudder and juggling rods etc, the rudder actually seemed to make it harder for me.

i apply allot of one handed paddle techniques to keep a line.....i did a post about this a while back. check out: http://kayakangler.blogspot.com/2008/09/trip-report-nehalem-river-nw-oregon.html

it seems easier to me because i practice this stuff every time i've paddled for the last 10 years.....only used the rudder that one time. i really didn't like the sliding foot pegs. the boat is so wide, that working the pegs puts me in an uncomfortable position.

it seemed that every time i used the rudder, instead of holding the line, the boat turned, and i had to use the paddle anyway.

My Trident 13 also came with a rudder and I've tried it a few times and don't really like it.   I find that I end up fighting the rudder to turn instead of using the foot pegs to turn.   I guess I've paddled too long without one.  I do sometimes troll with a downrigger set up which tends to pull the kayak to one side and I'm hoping that the rudder will come in handy for those occasions.

Brian

That's okay Brian and Jason, even you guys can get it with practice.

 

Yup.  What he said.  Who said?  You said.

Different stokes for different folks and different strokes for different situations.  I don't use a rudder.  I don't even have a yak with one on it.  That being said, I was toying with adding one specifically for downrigger fishing.  But probably won't be doing much downrigger fishing in CA.

Jason, would love to see a video of you doing a single stroke, 180 degree turn on a T15.   

-Allen

Yup.  What he said.  Who said?  You said.

Different stokes for different folks and different strokes for different situations.  I don't use a rudder.  I don't even have a yak with one on it.  That being said, I was toying with adding one specifically for downrigger fishing.  But probably won't be doing much downrigger fishing in CA.

Jason, would love to see a video of you doing a single stroke, 180 degree turn on a T15.   

-Allen

me 2

bow rudder and an edge dudes.....you too will turn 180 with 1 stroke!

you do need momentum though.....can't do it from a stand still.

as soon as we get that HD camera, i'll post it.....maybe i'll just use my digital camera to get some low res video this weekend.

-jason

i gotta quit talking smack!

Oh ... I thought you were doing it without a rudder.

On the T11 this weekend, I was flipping 180's with 2 strokes from a standstill ... no edging, no rudder.  Can't wait to get that thing on a river.

-Allen

no "rudder". the bow rudder is a paddle stroke.

yeah those short boats are super maneuverable. i might be able to do two strokes from a standstill to get a 180 on the t15 if i let it drift through the 180 and hold a hard edge.

I'll have to try i don't know. usually i edge, sweep, then plant the bow rudder stroke while holding the edge. that will usually give a 180 from a standstill, but you have to hold it and let the boat continue to turn even when it slows.

works much better with forward momentum.

here is a link to a good description of the bow rudder.

www.bathunicanoe.org.uk/.../turning/bowRudder

It's a good starting point to learn blade control, and leads to good directional control rough water/current as it can be applied at the stern, the bow, your knee, your hip...it's all about blade angle.

it's the laziest way to turn quick and sharp, that's why i use it all the time..did i say lazy? i mean "efficient"

...
i gotta quit talking smack!

Jason,

Just so you know.. we have something we give out for smack talk that you can't back up (or otherwise making an ass of yourself).. we call it the Asshat.

This..


becomes your avatar for a few days after you earn it.  I've had it twice already so don't feel bad if you end up with it.   

Brian

no "rudder". the bow rudder is a paddle stroke.

Oh, I read that too fast.  I know what a bow rudder is.   

-Allen

Nice. I will proudly wear the "ass hat"....when it's due.

I am confident I can back up all the BS I've posted......so far. surfing and rolling the t15, a one stroke 180 in a t-15.....i'll get some video of the one stroke by monday or tuesday and the roll, but the surf is going to be a while as school is keeping me from the coast right now.

You guys are quick to call someone out! I like it.

-Jason

...
i gotta quit talking smack!

Jason,

Just so you know.. we have something we give out for smack talk that you can't back up (or otherwise making an ass of yourself).. we call it the Asshat.

This..


becomes your avatar for a few days after you earn it.  I've had it twice already so don't feel bad if you end up with it.   

Brian

Ahh hah... now i know what the asshat's for. better watch what i say.

paul

I got the prowler 15 with the rudder because i thought it would make holding a line on a drift easier.

i used it the first time, and never again. i guess because i am so used to using my blade as a rudder and juggling rods etc, the rudder actually seemed to make it harder for me.

i apply allot of one handed paddle techniques to keep a line.....i did a post about this a while back. check out: http://kayakangler.blogspot.com/2008/09/trip-report-nehalem-river-nw-oregon.html

it seems easier to me because i practice this stuff every time i've paddled for the last 10 years.....only used the rudder that one time. i really didn't like the sliding foot pegs. the boat is so wide, that working the pegs puts me in an uncomfortable position.

it seemed that every time i used the rudder, instead of holding the line, the boat turned, and i had to use the paddle anyway.

Jason,
1st; loved the scene in PH where you were surfing the tidal races.. doing things like that is one of the reasons I'd gotten involved in kayaks in the first place, tho i've yet to even attempt it. and thank you for sharing so much in such a short time. some of your posts have confirmed several things that i suspected i needed to do to improve my boat control skills.

2nd; if the T15 is so uncomfortably wide for you, may i suggest checking out the newly reintroduced Scupper Pro TW from OK?? it's way narrower and may be more to your liking , as it appears to have the more traditional lines of a sea yak rather than the barge like lines of a fish yak. as was pointed out to me when i first got here not all that long ago,, sometimes it's best to try before you buy. in my case i jumped in big mouth and both feets all at once and never tested anything else. do i regret it?? not entirely, no.

however, being a larger, and older, neophyte, i found the elitist attitudes of the smaller SInK's very distasteful when i would bring up the fact that there aren't all that many  reasonably priced decked yaks out there that would fit a larger person....i would have loved to have found a nice general purpose, decked boat to use not only for fishing but day touring as well.. but none that i looked at would go above what i already weigh, in capacity..

please pardon my digression..

in the short time i've been doing this, i've heard pro and con regarding rudders. i will tell you that there are plenty of days when i've run into winds that put me in serious frustration mode because my very modest beginners paddling skills weren't up to the task, but had i had the use of a rudder, i may have had less of such a hard time getting back to where i had launched from that morning. yes, there is no substitue for skills and experience, but sometimes a crutch is a good thing to have 

wanderingrichard-

Actually I wasn't in the tidal race footage. That was some of my friends who have much bigger balls/better skills than me. I like to do the same stuff, but when I do it, it doesn't look very pretty.

I try not to be an "elitist", but more of a purist. Someones got to keep the sport tied to it's original form, because a pedal drive, sit on top, with a sail.......is not a kayak.

But that's ok, I have nothing against it. I my self am just more into the original form.
I think paddling a kayak is a skill anyone can learn with a little effort and desire, and I get dissapointed when 90% of people are affraid of "tipping over" or getting "trapped" in that tiny little cokcpit.

It's a reasonable fear, but what the hell do you want to kayak for? In one 2 hour lesson, annyone from 9 to 90 can learn proper strokes, edging, wet exits and assisted rescues.

I just get frustrated sometimes with people who want to kayak but don't want to "learn" to kayak.

It's fine if you want a pool toy, or a floaty thing for the kids at the lakehouse, but IT'S NOT KAYAKING. I'm just trying to keep the sport from drifting so far from it's original form that we forget why kayaks are long, skinny, and have those tiny little cockpits.

ok deep breath. I do like the scramber xt. It was the first SOT I paddled. It's just to short for me.

Yes it is 26" wide, but it's a foot shorter than the t-15, so in reality, it's about the same amount of waisted effort to push that thing around as the t-15.

I like the t-15 just fine, I just don't like working the footpegs for the rudder on a wide boat. Applying pressure at the feet in the spread eagle position is very uncomfortable for me.

It's hard to go from the effeciency of 17'8" x21.5" to 15+ x 30" it's like going back to dial up after surfing the net on broadband.

All that really matters, is that people are getting out....the rest is my personal problem 

jason,
is all good.

do check out the scupper tw tho. it just may be the fit you are looking for.

no, i dont work in ferndale for OK. just an older guy finding a new sport that i'll keep at for a very long time.

like everyone else, i'll adapt as needed.
Rich