Anker battery issues

AKRider,

That is some great info and very helpful for others deciding which route to go for their power source. 

Last year several of us started doing a bit of fairly organized testing.   We were all using 7 watt landscape lighting bulbs found at Home Depot and tracking how long various batteries would take to drain down to 10 volts from a full charge.
  Here is one of several groups of various battery / battery packs I tested ranging from various brands of SLA's ranging from 4 to 9 Ah, Blue bricks ranging from 6800 to 80,000 mAh,  LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries, grouped 18650 packs and Li-Ion batteries designed as backups for personal electronics if they had a 12V output.   I even tested units designed to jump start vehicles.   



Others tested several different batteries including the popular Anker. 
Would you consider doing the "7 watt bulb" test so it could be added to the results we will hopefully provide soon.   Info from batteries that several others have already tested is appreciated since we all use different means of charging them.

Thanks

OK - So here are the results.  Blue Brick vs. SLA

First the batteries:
Blue Brick - chinese DC 12800 (Banggood.com, shipped from Canada) at 8000mAh (8AH) Li-Ion power cell, slow charged on supplied charger to 12.6 volts.  I paid 23$.
Brick dimensions are 5"x2 5/8"x 1".   Weight is a bit over 9oz. 

SLA* - Cabelas branded 12v8.  12 Volt, 8AH battery.   Charged to 12.7 volts on black and decker charger.     Dims are 6"x2 5/8"x4", weight is 5 pound 10oz.  Online cost (AMZN):  $20
     *Comparison may be a bit unfair, as the blue brick is NEW and the SLA has a couple dozen charge cycles already, but it's the newest of the SLAs taat I have, and still came in close to 8AH.   I paid Alaska Cabelas price, but similar are available at AMZN for the $20 price range. 

Test bench comprised of digital ammeter, digital voltmeter, LED lights, switch.  Kept it simple.  Discharge rate for test started from 0.65Amps and dropped a bit as the voltage dropped.  Test was conducted to find the number of AmpHours of power delivered while the battery stayed in the recommended range for Lawrence FF (10volts min, max 17)

Results, kept simple:

  Blue Brick delivered 3.44 AmpHours before battery voltage dropped below 10.1 volts.  This is about 38.6 usable WattHours, or 68 usable WH/pound

  SLA delivered 7.9 AmpHours before battery dropped below 10.1 volts.   About 90.5 usable WattHours.   Thats 16.1 WH/pound.

So - at least for the first blue brick tested, nowhere near the 8AH rating, less than half in fact.   HOWEVER it weighs one tenth of the SLA and was roughly 10% more expensive.   So the power storage capacity (WH usable) per pound is MUCH higher.   Theres not a huge difference in price, but you could give each battery a score based on milli-amphours per pound per $dollar spent, that'd look like this: 

Blue Brick score:   249.0  mah/#/$
SLA Score:             71.3  mah/#/$

If you care most about money, or make long multi-day trips with no charger, and can live with the weight, go for the SLA - you get much greater amp hours and can charge up much faster.  For an extra $23 bucks you could buy two blue bricks, and get nearly the same run time carrying only 20% of the weight of an SLA.   

Maybe Salty will loan me his LiFePO battery for a bench test - they look light by the spec, but their 'comparative ratings' are based on CCA not on power storage, so until tested I'll trust the 9 hours.  /wink.

Just let me know when you want to do some testing and I will bring it over.

Wow!  Thanks for all the testing/analysis.  do you guys feel the SLA is the safest battery to use in a kayak?  I seem to remember Yaktrap detailing the dangers of the Anker style batteries.  Maybe a key consideration in light of how well the old SLA is testing

AKRider,

That is some great info and very helpful for others deciding which route to go for their power source. 

Last year several of us started doing a bit of fairly organized testing.   We were all using 7 watt landscape lighting bulbs found at Home Depot and tracking how long various batteries would take to drain down to 10 volts from a full charge.
  Here is one of several groups of various battery / battery packs I tested ranging from various brands of SLA's ranging from 4 to 9 Ah, Blue bricks ranging from 6800 to 80,000 mAh,  LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries, grouped 18650 packs and Li-Ion batteries designed as backups for personal electronics if they had a 12V output.   I even tested units designed to jump start vehicles.   



Others tested several different batteries including the popular Anker. 
Would you consider doing the "7 watt bulb" test so it could be added to the results we will hopefully provide soon.   Info from batteries that several others have already tested is appreciated since we all use different means of charging them.

Thanks

I Used a bank of 10 LED lamps that each draw around 53 to 64 mA at 12.6 volts.   That basically puts the lamp array at the 7Watt draw level.   One thing that I found is that the watt rating of LEDs can't be relied on any more than the battery mAh ratings... you have to test the current draw to be sure.   Next time I am at Home Depot I'll look for the 7Watt bulbs though - do you have a brand name I should watch for ??

We had used the Philips 7 watt T-5 found in a 4 pack where they sell their landscape lighting .   I found they were all drawing between .510 and .527 A

Wow!  Thanks for all the testing/analysis.  do you guys feel the SLA is the safest battery to use in a kayak?  I seem to remember Yaktrap detailing the dangers of the Anker style batteries.  Maybe a key consideration in light of how well the old SLA is testing

Safety is a different issue from battery life.  Any of these different types of batteries are safe if used, maintained and installed correctly.  Some types require more care and feeding than others.  Some are much more simple to adapt to what we're doing with them.  Some perform closer to how they're rated to perform.  Some are far less expensive than others.

In general, lithium-ion and lithium polymer batteries can be problematic, even dangerous, if saturated with water or (significantly) over-charged.  Most have internal circuitry to prevent over-over-charging, and we build some mighty fancy battery boxes to keep them dry.

SLA and lithium iron phosphate batteries don't exhibit the water intrusion over-charging issues, but some lithium iron phosphate batteries require special battery chargers - they won't explode if you use the wrong charger, but they can be damaged and not perform as expected.  If you wanted to discuss safety in relative terms, these two are the "safest" types of batteries to use in a kayak - they have the fewest issues related to our application.

SLA batteries are the cheapest and most reliable power source for kayak use.  Period.  You can take an SLA battery, twist the wires on the terminals and toss it in the kayak and it will perform - until the saltwater corrodes away the terminals.  You can do the same with the LiFePo batteries, but they cost a bucket-load of bucks to buy.  All the others must be protected from water in a dry box because wet lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries can overheat and do real damage.

I wouldn't throw the LiFePoO4 batteries into the safe column with the SLA. It is a safer lithium based battery chemistry, but still a lithium based battery. Lots of lithium-ion batteries these days come in an 18650 cell form. If you bust open a LiFePoO4 brick battery that looks like a SLA, you'll find its just a bunch of 18650 cells configured to give the proper dimensions of voltage and current.  The manufacturer of these lithium-ion battery cells or battery packs makes a YYYUUUUUUUGE difference in the overall safety and performance of the product.

I wouldn't throw the LiFePoO4 batteries into the safe column with the SLA. It is a safer lithium based battery chemistry, but still a lithium based battery. Lots of lithium-ion batteries these days come in an 18650 cell form. If you bust open a LiFePoO4 brick battery that looks like a SLA, you'll find its just a bunch of 18650 cells configured to give the proper dimensions of voltage and current.  The manufacturer of these lithium-ion battery cells or battery packs makes a YYYUUUUUUUGE difference in the overall safety and performance of the product.

I thought the chemistry was quite different within the LiFePo cells and that they can be used in applications where they might get wet without needing special environmental protection - or we're paying way to much for a pig in the poke.

Aren't 18650 cells lithium polymer, and not lithium iron phosphate?

We had used the Philips 7 watt T-5 found in a 4 pack where they sell their landscape lighting .   I found they were all drawing between .510 and .527 A

I'll see what I can find for the 7WT5 bulbs and let you know.   I see a Shorai motorsports battery in the picture - what kind of usable AHrs did you get out of that one ?   I'll definitely want to review your info!

This is one of my favorite threads ever! 

Keep the geek rolling boys!

-Mark-

I wouldn't throw the LiFePoO4 batteries into the safe column with the SLA. It is a safer lithium based battery chemistry, but still a lithium based battery. Lots of lithium-ion batteries these days come in an 18650 cell form. If you bust open a LiFePoO4 brick battery that looks like a SLA, you'll find its just a bunch of 18650 cells configured to give the proper dimensions of voltage and current.  The manufacturer of these lithium-ion battery cells or battery packs makes a YYYUUUUUUUGE difference in the overall safety and performance of the product.

I thought the chemistry was quite different within the LiFePo cells and that they can be used in applications where they might get wet without needing special environmental protection - or we're paying way to much for a pig in the poke.

Aren't 18650 cells lithium polymer, and not lithium iron phosphate?

The chemistry is a little different, and relatively safer, but it is still a li-ion based battery. What's cool about these ones is they have that cool SLA-looking package that make them a seemingly direct replacement for a real SLA. This package does protect it from the elements, but underneath the package is likely a bunch of 18650 cells. I guess they could be prism pouch cells too, but that doesn't really make much difference.  They are most likely li-ion, not li-polymer. The 18650 cells, which are never li-poly, have become very popular lately so that's why they are more likely to be used in these packs. The big point is it is still subject to the same requirements as other li-ion based batteries. DON'T get the cells wet. There will be a battery management system, or BMS, inside the case to prevent over charging, over discharging and thermal runaway. A regular SLA doesn't need a BMS to manage it's operation.

Thanks for the clarification, rawkfish.  I learn something new and exciting with every visit.

Apologies for the semi-hijack.  Now back to the regularly scheduled programming...

<geek escape / trigger notice >

If I am not mistaken the 18650 numeration refers to the form factor of the cell: 18mm Dia. by 65 mm length.   You can get an 18650 in both chemistries: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and the prior LiIon which has either a lithium manganese or lithium cobalt electrode (I forget which is newer or more common).   These LiIon batteries are more subject to thermal runaway if overcharged, damaged/shorted, etc.   But, as mentioned above, you can still damage a LiFePO4 battery by either overcharging or over dis-charging your batteries' cells. 

It is my understanding that the 12.8volt LiFePO4 batteries commercially packaged in the classic SLA 12v7 or 12v10 sizes are comprised of four @ 3.2volt cells, and have included inside the hermetically sealed packaging a battery protection module that prevents damage due to over charge or discharge by disconnecting the output in these situations.   IF you buy a LiFePO4 battery and it doesn't have the protective circuit, you should not run the battery below 10volts (which translates to 2.5volts per cell).   If you discharge below 2.0volts per cell, 8 volts on a nominal 12.8volt battery, the manufacturers warn of "Severe Damage" occurring.   If you look at an output graph for the batteries, the battery voltage drops really fast once it drops below 11 volts.   

... back to test results for CraigVM62.  I re-ran the blue brick test with your 7W bulb (I measured a draw of 0.51amps at 12.5 volts).   No surprise, the result was nearly identical, I got no better than 3.3 amp hours this time on an 8000mAh blue brick battery pack.   I am totally confident that a repeat of the SLA test with the 7W incandescent bulb would also be consistent with my prior test with LED lights.

I'll save the data, and give it a rest for a while, maybe follow up with Salty later to check out his LiFePO battery.

Thanks for all the info guys, unfortunately I'm more confused and have a migraine. After the two million tests can we put it in layman terms so a retired garbag man knows if I need to buy a new battery to replace my SLA battery to save 3 or 4 pounds or is it so I can run ten more gadgets on my yak with nav lights for the whole weekend without a recharge. By laymans terms can you rate them 1-?? With a basic single reason for the ratings that isn't more then 2 lines and isn't riddled with ten syllable words in it?
Thanks and I really do appreciate you guys that know WHAT they are doing taking the time to run the tests and give us real answers to questions that I'd just turn my head 10 degrees to the side and look at with a dumbfounded look. 

Thanks for all the info guys, unfortunately I'm more confused and have a migraine. After the two million tests can we put it in layman terms so a retired garbag man knows if I need to buy a new battery to replace my SLA battery to save 3 or 4 pounds or is it so I can run ten more gadgets on my yak with nav lights for the whole weekend without a recharge. By laymans terms can you rate them 1-?? With a basic single reason for the ratings that isn't more then 2 lines and isn't riddled with ten syllable words in it?
Thanks and I really do appreciate you guys that know WHAT they are doing taking the time to run the tests and give us real answers to questions that I'd just turn my head 10 degrees to the side and look at with a dumbfounded look.

Thank you, thought I was the only one