Anker battery issues

<geek escape / trigger notice >

If I am not mistaken the 18650 numeration refers to the form factor of the cell: 18mm Dia. by 65 mm length.   You can get an 18650 in both chemistries: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and the prior LiIon which has either a lithium manganese or lithium cobalt electrode (I forget which is newer or more common).   These LiIon batteries are more subject to thermal runaway if overcharged, damaged/shorted, etc.   But, as mentioned above, you can still damage a LiFePO4 battery by either overcharging or over dis-charging your batteries' cells. 

Yes, you're right.  I should be more clear.  The 18650 is a form factor or package type. And I agree with everything else.

It is my understanding that the 12.8volt LiFePO4 batteries commercially packaged in the classic SLA 12v7 or 12v10 sizes are comprised of four @ 3.2volt cells, and have included inside the hermetically sealed packaging a battery protection module that prevents damage due to over charge or discharge by disconnecting the output in these situations.   IF you buy a LiFePO4 battery and it doesn't have the protective circuit, you should not run the battery below 10volts (which translates to 2.5volts per cell).   If you discharge below 2.0volts per cell, 8 volts on a nominal 12.8volt battery, the manufacturers warn of "Severe Damage" occurring.   If you look at an output graph for the batteries, the battery voltage drops really fast once it drops below 11 volts.   

That packaging may be true for lots of LiFePO4 batteries on the market.  I guess I shouldn't have said they are all made up of 18650 cells. In fact, I can't seem to find the info I saw a while ago showing 18650 cells inside a 12v LiFePO4 brick and it's really bugging me.  And yes, they should have a BMS inside the package to control the operation just as you described. 

The unfortunate reality is that there are many manufacturers in overseas facilities that are cranking out batteries in any way they can and cutting corners while doing so.  There are also manufacturers in overseas facilities that are cranking out perfectly good batteries that are safe and work well. I want people to know they should approach Li-ion based batteries with caution and only buy from good, reputable sources because the market is getting flooded with unsafe batteries(e.g. "hoverboards").

This is good discussion though, you guys are doing really good testing! Keep it up!

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!  Jeff, this is 'merica. When someone points out a minor error, or clarifies a statement you make, you are NOT supposed to agree with them. Your first response should have been to get defensive. Then you should have counter-attacked. Sheesh! What is this country coming to when we can agree on things and discuss things in a civilized manner.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!  Jeff, this is 'merica. When someone points out a minor error, or clarifies a statement you make, you are NOT supposed to agree with them. Your first response should have been to get defensive. Then you should have counter-attacked. Sheesh! What is this country coming to when we can agree on things and discuss things in a civilized manner.

You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about!  What a complete idiot!!

Who knew that there was this much to know about batteries! I have a related question.

Is it worth the extra cost for a smart charger like this?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K72C1T4?colid=3U7ADJT02U2HI&coliid=I2PVMZFONG75YQ&psc=1&ref_=gl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

Instead of the basic charger like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Sealed-Lead-Battery-Charger-D1724/dp/B001G8AIMU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1456684218&sr=8-2&keywords=SLA+12v+charger

I see they work on SLA's and I have been running the simple charger. What about on the blue bricks. Is that a different charger?

I'm leaning more toward SLA's for an extended camping/fishing trip this summer, but the weight cut is enticing.
Dan

Hands down my vote would be for the first. It's 750mA won't make it a fast charger but I would think it would charge s 7Ah SLA overnight.  It could be used for basic charging of many Lithium based batteries but I would still monitor and disconnect once full charge voltage is reached.  The OEM chargers that come with the cheap "Blue Brick" batteries differ in that they completely shot down voltage going to the battery once it is fully charged or voltage of the battery reaches roughly 12.6 volts.      There are a variety of different "lithium" based batteries and I found this link to be very informative:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

 Unlike the first,  the second charger gives no indication it monitors the voltage of the battery and changes it's charging characteristics.  It looks to be nothing more than a 6-12 volt selectable transformer and simplest of trickle chargers.

Agreed.  Go with the first one.  A charger with a brain built into it will extend the life of your battery dramatically. 

Also, "blue bricks" that we have been mentioning in this thread are likely going to be Li-ion, which would require a charger that has a Li-ion program in it.  I'm pretty sure the charging profile for a SLA is different than the charging profile for a Li-ion.

Here's the charger I have recently started using:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XC62FFC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00

It has programs for Li-ion, lead acid, NiMH, and can be custom programmed to give whatever charge program you want. It can also run in discharge mode for re-conditioning batteries.

Not to brow beat anyone as it can be a bit confusing to relearn what we thought we used to know about batteries in general. But there are some broad statements made that are "untruths" that are mixed in with good information. Great topic!

- DO NOT classify all Lithium batteries as generally the same. They are not.
- Most, but not all LiFePo4 batteries have a BMS inside and are capable of higher current going in/out.
- Some LiFePo4 Batteries have charging abilities much as AGM Lead acid batteries. You could even use jumper cables to your car!* (For a short time. see note below)

My opinion:
-*You should get or use a charger that matches the charging specifications of the of battery manufacturer.
- Using the right "smart" charger is a good investment for all types of batteries but for different reasons depending on the type.
- Me personally, I don't want to put anything other than a current LiFePo4 type of lithium battery in my kayak due to the reported safety issues (thermal runaway etc.) of all the others.
- The way we are using batteries, you want a larger "deep cycle" battery. You want to use a battery that's large enough capacity that you won’t drain it too far- all the time. This is going to damage the battery and will shorten the life. Batteries will last longer if you can manage to limit the depth of discharge (DOD) to a range between 70%-80%. To prevent or reduce sulfation, use a bigger battery than you think you need and keep it charged! Don’t let it sit drained.
- A 7ah battery will work. It has been proven for many folks. I question however, how many usable amp hours that equates to that isn’t damaging the battery in the long term. My experience hasn’t been good.

-The reasons to switch to a LiFePo4 Lithium over SLA
1. They are lighter of course
2. They do not Sulfate. If there is one other key advantage to learn about, is the cause and effect of Sulfation in LA batteries. Sulfation is the primary cause of failure of LA batteries.
3. They will outlast any AGM battery many times over making it the economical choice in the long run. (provided its maintained.) This is because they do not sulfate. However, even with LiFePo4 batteries… here again, you need to go with a larger capacity to prevent damage from drawing it down too far. (not to be confused with sulfation, however)

My conclusion:
In my mind, you have to go with a larger heavier battery if you want to use if for an extended camping/fishing trip. You could go with just a bigger higher AH rated SLA but the weight is the issue- or maybe not for some. Step up to a larger SLA deep cycle battery and the price goes up! For example, a 36ah rated battery, you are going to pay $100+ for a good battery of the right capacity and still have significant weight in the 25lb range. You can get into a good USA made LifePo4 36AH battery that will weigh less than 5 lbs! But it will cost you around $300. No doubt you have to pay to play, but you buy it once, and enjoy it worry and trouble free for a very very long time.

IF you buy a LiFePO4 battery and it doesn't have the protective circuit, you should not run the battery below 10volts (which translates to 2.5volts per cell).   If you discharge below 2.0volts per cell, 8 volts on a nominal 12.8volt battery, the manufacturers warn of "Severe Damage" occurring.

Question, if the FF quits at 10v output, is that sufficient protection for a limited draw down? There have been numerous posts warning of overdischarge. It almost seems that our application prevents it anyway.
Q2: How do you know if the LiFePo4 has a protective circuit? Are they labeled?

Where did the 10V come from as the maximum discharge? This is NOT the case for all LiFePo4 batteries!  The one I am using the manufacture expressly recommends maintaining within 50% of capacity as a best practice and no less than 20% capacity remaining.

14.34V = 100%
13.300 = 90% Good
13.270 = 80% Good
13.160 = 70% Good
13.130 = 60% Good
13.116 = 50% Recharge
13.104 = 40% Recharge
12.996 = 30% Recharge
12.866 = 20% Caution! Recharge NOW!
12.730 = 10% BAD
9.200 = 0% BAD

[urlhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JK06CK8?keywords=LiFePo4%20battery&qid=1456790397&ref_=sr_1_8&sr=8-8][/url]
Here is one with a better price than K2 at 109, but might be imported. It says it has BMS and can be charged with an SLA smart charger.
Still the price could drive me to multiple SLA's for multiple days, not a bigger unit, just more of them.

IF you buy a LiFePO4 battery and it doesn't have the protective circuit, you should not run the battery below 10volts (which translates to 2.5volts per cell).   If you discharge below 2.0volts per cell, 8 volts on a nominal 12.8volt battery, the manufacturers warn of "Severe Damage" occurring.

Question, if the FF quits at 10v output, is that sufficient protection for a limited draw down? There have been numerous posts warning of overdischarge. It almost seems that our application prevents it anyway.
Q2: How do you know if the LiFePo4 has a protective circuit? Are they labeled?

It depends on what kind of battery you are using. Ultimately it is up to the user of the sonar to decide whether that is a safe level for their battery to be at or not. As browneyesvictim showed, that is a really bad place for the LiFePo4 battery he uses to be at.  If you're using a 12 lead acid battery, you still don't want your battery at 10 volts.  If you're using 8 AA cells to power a sonar unit, 10 volts is totally fine.

LiFePo4 batteries(that come in the SLA-style brick form) should all have a BMS system inside.  Make sure you buy a battery from a company that sells quality stuff and has a good reputation.  Do some research or go with recommendations of someone who has one.  If it's just some random seller on ebay that doesn't give you a lot of confidence, I would probably avoid it.  And not all foreign-based products are bad.  The batteries I am starting to use are from Japan and are awesome.

If you decide your battery can't be allowed to go down to 10 volts, set a voltage alarm on your sonar and turn it off when it gets to that point. Any sonar that has the ability to show the voltage should have an alarm setting for the battery.

Where did the 10V come from as the maximum discharge? This is NOT the case for all LiFePo4 batteries!  The one I am using the manufacture expressly recommends maintaining within 50% of capacity as a best practice and no less than 20% capacity remaining.

14.34V = 100%
13.300 = 90% Good
13.270 = 80% Good
13.160 = 70% Good
13.130 = 60% Good
13.116 = 50% Recharge
13.104 = 40% Recharge
12.996 = 30% Recharge
12.866 = 20% Caution! Recharge NOW!
12.730 = 10% BAD
9.200 = 0% BAD

I like that discharge profile, since the full range of the cell remains well within the recommended V range for lowrance units that I run.  It's a weird range for the chemistry though, unless it is a 5-cell instead of 4-cell constructed battery (which it could be).    Which manufacturer do you use ?

Where did the 10V come from as the maximum discharge? This is NOT the case for all LiFePo4 batteries!  The one I am using the manufacture expressly recommends maintaining within 50% of capacity as a best practice and no less than 20% capacity remaining.

14.34V = 100%
13.300 = 90% Good
13.270 = 80% Good
13.160 = 70% Good
13.130 = 60% Good
13.116 = 50% Recharge
13.104 = 40% Recharge
12.996 = 30% Recharge
12.866 = 20% Caution! Recharge NOW!
12.730 = 10% BAD
9.200 = 0% BAD

I like that discharge profile, since the full range of the cell remains well within the recommended V range for lowrance units that I run.  It's a weird range for the chemistry though, unless it is a 5-cell instead of 4-cell constructed battery (which it could be).    Which manufacturer do you use ?

http://www.amazon.com/UPG-48070-APP36A3-BS12-Motorcycle-Phosphate/dp/B00913IKXQ/
This is the same as a Shorai LFX. They have really good tech specs and information and FAQ on their web page. http://shoraipower.com/

Now, wait. It's ok for alkaline and SLA batteries to drop below 10 volts overall but not these high priced exotic mineral based units?

Now, wait. It's ok for alkaline and SLA batteries to drop below 10 volts overall but not these high priced exotic mineral based units?

It depends on what the nominal voltage of your total battery pack is. 

For example, rechargeable AA are rated at 1.2 volts, max voltage is around 1.5 volts and you'll want to stop discharging them at about 0.9 volts per cell from what I've read.  So if you have 8 of these cells in series, the discharge range for your pack is 12 to 7.2 volts. 10 AA batteries in series gives you a range of 15 to 9 volts.  Therefore, assuming your sonar has a lower limit of 10 volts, the unit will cut out before your battery pack reaches a safe discharge level.

On the other hand, lead acid batteries are made up of cells whose nominal rating is 2 volts, max voltage is around 2.3 volts and safe discharge limit is about 1.75 volts.  So if you're using a lead acid battery rated at 12 volts (2.0 x 6), whose safe discharge voltage ranges from a little over 13 to 10.5 volts, you will likely want to shut off your sonar unit before it hits 10.5 volts (1.75 x 6).  Preferably, for a lead acid battery, you really don't want it getting close to the low end of it's safe range on a regular basis.  Hitting the low end regularly will decrease the life of your battery.

Different chemistries of Li-ion are rated at different levels per cell so they have various discharge ranges.  Most important thing is to read the documentation for the particular battery you decide to go with and stick to the best practices.