flounder/ rock sole/sand dab

When did the limit drop to 2?

-Allen

Pretty sure it was last season. A total retention limit of 15 bottom fish w/ a limit of 2 of each species. They're like cockroaches up my way and wouldn't mind the limit being bumped up. They're damn tasty.

I love sole/flounder.  Where exactly is, "up my way"?
   I'm new here and live in Birch Bay village in Blaine...Anywhere west of Birch Point or Point Whitehorn is loaded with sole and flounder....Small but very tasty   Here is a report link   http://forums.sportfishingmag.com/archive/index.php/t-560884.html

I saw a raging rebate on another board regarding bottomfish limit and I believe the flounder/sole limit is indeed 15.

Here's how the regs read.  For instance, in the BOTTOMFISH row in the MA10 section it says "Year-round season.  Daily limit is a total of 15 BOTTOMFISH regardless of species, subjust to individual limits and seasons ...".   

On page 22, "bottomfish" is defined and includes "sole and flounder".

"Sole and flounder" do not have a separate row for invidivual limits, so the 15 "BOTTOMFISH regardless of species" kicks in.

-Allen

Thanks pole2...I have been checked by the fish cops and counters....2 only of each species in our areas   Rules change in area 1,2,3,4....Good luck...
.Think about a trip to Mukkaw Bay...Hobuck Beach...2 Lings..10 Rockfish...Surf Launch and memories of fish on every cast...Is that enough internet chum for kayakfishers?   Hunter S. Thompson will narrate..LOL

Thanks pole2...I have been checked by the fish cops and counters....2 only of each species in our areas   Rules change in area 1,2,3,4....Good luck...
.Think about a trip to Mukkaw Bay...Hobuck Beach...2 Lings..10 Rockfish...Surf Launch and memories of fish on every cast...Is that enough internet chum for kayakfishers?   Hunter S. Thompson will narrate..LOL

I read MA 5 and 6 like I read 10.  Did the fish cops and counters say 2 sole/flounders only?

-Allen

Under the category ALL OTHER FISH (as sole and flounder are not specifically named) "... Daily limit 2 of each species..." is the reference that appears to cover these guys.

It's confusing as it appears that the header of that section, BOTTOMFISH, would summarize the rules regarding the little flatties, as they are bottomfish in actual point of fact.  However, on closer inspection, you can see by the indentation of the blue rules (horizontal divider lines) that the only fish covered by the "BOTTOMFISH" section are the ones between the bold section titles (between BOTTOMFISH  and ALL OTHER FISH).  So, the daily limit of 15 is exactly the max you would be allowed if you were to limit with Lincod (1 by spearfishing, 1 by angling = 2), Surfperch (10), Rockfish (1) and Cabezon(2) for a total of 15.

This is the best ever example of why Washington rules publications can SUCK!  Until this discussion came up I was in PolePole's camp.  Then I sat down and really studied it.  Unfortunately, I now believe that the limit is 2.

~edit~

Oh, and please keep in mind I'm only talking about area 10.  I haven't bothered to study the rest! 

I've come to the same conclusion as YM. A few years ago it was different and you could rack 'em up but seems like there was an issue at hand... although I can't imagine a shortage of sole. I'd love to get the official word as I'd really hate to get fined for a stringer full of sole.

This is the best ever example of why Washington rules publications can SUCK!

Couldn't agree more.

Z

I left Washington in 1992, and moved to Oregon.  It seems as though the Washington DFW is trying to confuse people out of fishing, or make a killing on fines for those that attempt to fish in that state.   


At this point I can still read and understand most of Oregon DFW regs say or mean.  Washington, not at all!   I'd rather figure out my own taxes before sitting down with a hot cup of WDFW regs.  And I'd prefer to attempt rebuilding my Ford F350 diesel motor in my living room before I would ever attempt to do my own taxes.  And, nevermind.....

There is no shortage of sole or for that matter greenling.... Still only 2 of each species...except surfperch, albacore,  mackeral...forage fish etc.. in most MA's
Next time you see a fish cop ask..get the cops name and accept that as law...

It's best to keep a copy of the regs as reading material in the bathroom and read,read and read somemore. Each area can have small differences..
 The fines are too big to not understand the regs...  and they can throw the book at you if they are in a bad mood
 

Under the category ALL OTHER FISH (as sole and flounder are not specifically named) "... Daily limit 2 of each species..." is the reference that appears to cover these guys.

It's confusing as it appears that the header of that section, BOTTOMFISH, would summarize the rules regarding the little flatties, as they are bottomfish in actual point of fact.  However, on closer inspection, you can see by the indentation of the blue rules (horizontal divider lines) that the only fish covered by the "BOTTOMFISH" section are the ones between the bold section titles (between BOTTOMFISH  and ALL OTHER FISH).  So, the daily limit of 15 is exactly the max you would be allowed if you were to limit with Lincod (1 by spearfishing, 1 by angling = 2), Surfperch (10), Rockfish (1) and Cabezon(2) for a total of 15.

This is the best ever example of why Washington rules publications can SUCK!  Until this discussion came up I was in PolePole's camp.  Then I sat down and really studied it.  Unfortunately, I now believe that the limit is 2.

~edit~

Oh, and please keep in mind I'm only talking about area 10.  I haven't bothered to study the rest! 

I don't think you can keep 2 lingcod ... one by angling and one by spearfishing.  But yes, it is unclear.  If you can't keep 2, then you can never get to 15 from the list in MA10 ... unless the 15 applies to all BOTTOMFISH.

Shoot, even BOTTOMFISH is referenced in the "ALL OTHER FISH" section when it says "Sculpins not listed in the BOTTOMFISH definition count as 1 species.   Note that the regs make sure to capitalize BOTTOMFISH, which is a common way of referring to previously defined terms (i.e. the definition of bottomfish on page 22).

Hmmm ... anyone wanna bet a beer on it?   

-Allen

Sounds like you need to keep a lawyer on retainer just to fish in Washington.   

Hmmm ... anyone wanna bet a beer on it?  

-Allen

Fat chance!!

But it does seem to be time to query WDFW, and request a definitive answer. I've been reading it and it's too easy to come up with multiple interpretations.

Hmmm ... anyone wanna bet a beer on it?   Evil

Sure!  And I hope I lose the bet! 

Spot... that lawyer bit is about what Rich (WR) has said nemerous times about not only fishing in washington but at times living in it..      
 

I emailed WDFW for a clarification.  The bottom line on bottom fish is if you only catch sole, dabs, and flounder you can possess 15 in any combination!

Here is the email I sent them, and the complete response I received 30 minutes later:

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:39 PM
To: fishregs@dfw.wa.gov
Subject: Sole, flounder limits?

Greetings,

I generally fish in Marine Areas 9 and 10 and I am confused as to the daily catch limits for flat bottomfish, soles, dabs, and flounders.

On page 22, "Definition of Terms" of the current 2009/2010 Sport Fishing Rules pamphlet it states:

"Bottomfish
Includes Pacific cod, Pacific tomcod, Pacific hake (or whiting), walleye pollock, all species of dabs, sole and flounders (except Pacific halibut), lingcod, ratfish, sablefish, cabezon, greenling, buffalo sculpin, great sculpin, red Irish lord, brown Irish lord, Pacific staghorn sculpin, wolfeel, giant wrymouth, plainfin midshipman, all species of shark, skate, rockfish, rattail, and surf perches excluding shiner perch."

On page 96, Marine Area rules under possession limits it states:
"Bottomfish - Two daily limits in any form."

On page 115, Marine Area 10 it states:
"BOTTOMFISH - Year-round season. Daily limit is a total of 15 BOTTOMFISH regardless of species, subject to individual limits and seasons as shown on previous page."

And on the same page it states:
"ALL OTHER FISH Year-round No min. size. Daily limit 2 of each species. Sculpins not listed in the bottomfish definition count as 1 species."

I interpret these statements thusly:

Since BOTTOMFISH are defined on page 22 as including soles, dabs, and flounder, and the BOTTOMFISH section of page 115 indicates a total of 15 of any combination of bottomfish, therefore if no other types of bottomfish were in possession a limit of 15 soles, dabs, and flounders is in effect.

Please clarify the possession limits for soles, dabs, and flounders.

Thank you.
-----------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Fishing Regulations (DFW) [mailto:Fishing.Regulations@dfw.wa.gov]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: F6673 Sole, flounder limits?

Thank you for your email correspondence to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) Fish Program.

Your best source for information on licenses, daily limits, season, restrictions, etc. would be the 2009/2010 Fishing In Washington Sport Fishing Rules regulation pamphlet. This pamphlet is full of a lot of useful information, such as license fees for both resident and non-resident on page 18. This publication is formatted with the regulations for Westside Rivers first, followed by Westside Lakes, Eastside Rivers, Eastside Lakes, Marine Area Rules and finally Shellfish/Seaweed Rules. There is also a list of the 6 Regional offices that are located throughout the state, with addresses and phone numbers included, on page 11.

In marine water, except Marine Area 12, anglers are allowed a daily limit of 15 bottomfish, regardless of species, but subject to the individual limits and seasons defined for Lingcod, Surfperch, Rockfish, Pacific Cod, Pollock, Hake and Cabezon. A complete list of Bottomfish can be found on page 22, under the Definitions of Terms used throughout the pamphlet.

Bottomfish have a total daily limit if 15 fish, regardless of species, but subject to individual species limits. If you catch nothing but Flounder and/or Sole, you may keep 15 fish. If you retain any other Bottomfish species, they will count toward your daily limit of 15 Bottomfish. For example, if you were lucky enough to catch 6 English Sole & 7 Starry Flounder or, 5 Sole & 5 Flounder & 3 Sand Dabs, that would be 13 total Bottomfish. This means that you would still be able to catch the daily limit of 2 Cabezon without exceeding the 15 Bottomfish limit.

Flounder & Sole fall under the Bottomfish category, while the ALL OTHER FISH refers to other species of fish not listed or defined under Bottomfish, Food Fish, or Game Fish. Some examples would be fish such as Striped Marlin, Striped Bass, some species of Sculpins, Yellow Fin Tuna, California Crocker Fish, etc.

If you do not have a copy of the new regulation pamphlet, you can respond with your surface mailing address and we would be happy to send one to you, or with your internet capability, you may view/download the WDFW online pamphlet at the following web address: http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/regs/2009/2009sportregs.pdf.

Please make sure you check for emergency rule changes before you harvest as follows:

Fishing Rule Change Hotline at (360) 902-2500 Shellfish Rule Change Hotline at Or, try our new searchable emergency rule link off our website at: https://fortress.wa.gov/dfw/erules/efishrules/index.jsp

Additionally, for shellfish, make sure to call the Dept. of Health Marine Toxins PSP Hotline at.

If you have further questions, please email again or call  (360) 902-2700.  Our Customer Service hours are 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday through Friday.

Sincerely,

Fish Program
-----------------------------

Damnit Demon ... couldn't you wait until I had a few more takers on my beer bet?   

BTW, the 15 limit applies to greenling too ...

-Allen