Interesting exchange on another board regarding wavewalk kayak marketing

So I get into a little tiff with apparently a promoter of the wave walk kayaks on another forum.  I am NOT knocking the wave walk kayak.  looks like an innovative design with some decent potential applications for stand up fishing and such.  But this member, cites this article on their marketing page...
http://wavewalk.com/blog/2010/10/11/paddle-vs-pedal-drive-in-common-fishing-kayaks/

I call BS and say to the person, this type of deceptive marketing trying to utilize what he calls science makes you folks looks ridiculous....

Was I off base here? I think i did take it over the line a little bit...passive agressive at its finest.    I know its not good form to post other forums but humor me here.  If this is inappropriate, just take it down.  All I know is I don't like it, I think it border lines on fraud at most, deceptive at minimum.  The exchange starts about half way through it...   Any thoughts?  I'm willing to say I am wrong...but I don't think so....

http://www.thehulltruth.com/kayaking-skiing-surfing/715636-using-feet-propel-kayak.html

Maybe more appropriate in the elders Forum as a quick search reveals many posts like this one that are made by members with very few posts and always just parroting the same propaganda with no actual experience.  I know that is not the case here where a dealer actually posts the wavewalk in action....

Time in business is better spent improving your products rather than knocking the competition.

Time in business is better spent improving your products rather than knocking the competition.

Dang it Chris....In one sentence, you said everything I did in my novel and with more class...

LOL!  Old dogs like me need to learn new tricks...and not get trolled like the fish I catch via trolling...it doesn't typically end well for them....It really hit a nerve for me though...obviously....

George Bernard Shaw said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

Maybe if you made an article he would believe you lol. Everything on the internet is true didn't you know lol!!!! But seriously that guy is dumb...

I am willing to bet significant amount of money my ten year old son in his Hobie Outback could pull backwards an average adult paddler on a wave walk.

I can't believe you dropped this. Offer it again. I'll buy some of your action up to $1k.

Tell the guy to put up or shut up. The offer is there.

Time in business is better spent improving your products rather than knocking the competition.

Dang it Chris....In one sentence, you said everything I did in my novel and with more class...

LOL!  Old dogs like me need to learn new tricks...and not get trolled like the fish I catch via trolling...it doesn't typically end well for them....It really hit a nerve for me though...obviously....

   It's okay Rudy----------- you'll get over it.
   I call BS on his opinions too. But we all have one--- just can't agree with that crap.
   Would that review make me lean toward getting a WW. Doubt it. Too many holes in the argument.
   Nerve is better.

Wait.....Wait....Wait!!

Wavewalk's article was very informative and eye opening for me.   

No... not really. 

I was reading this as if it were coming from a high end touring kayak's company wrote it. 

So, now let me ask a few questions and see if I can raise some "duh" like expressions based on Wavewalk's  skillfully written article covering everything between the superiority of their design over Hobies Mirage design as kayak fishing platforms. 

Pedal kayaks hands free fishing isn't real.  Maybe not 100% of the time.... no, but at least 75%-80% or more in my experience while actively moving forward, and that is ONLY if I need to correct my steering.  Now, how does Wavewalk or any other paddled kayak do with any form of hands free fishing?  Would I be wrong to say that only during glide, sitting still, or while being pulled by a fish, and never when actively paddling.  If so, I would really like to see a video on how this is accomplished.

Stability.  While pedaling the Hobie it is very clear that we all hold on for dear life as stability is compromised by having the feet so damn high in the air.  Huh?   That would make the hands free fishing impossible.  I find myself only holding on to the sides when I am actively hauling ass, as there really isn't anything else I need to do with my hands at that point.  Certainly not for stability control.

Now, something I have always wanted to see a video of, is self recovery of when the Wavewalk tips and dumps the rider over the side.  Are they really that stable that there is no way they will ever tip over?  Must be, as I can't find a single video on self recovery with a Wavewalk.  I smell Unicorn poop!!! 

Now, speed.  In the article they talk a bit about speed and how wide and slow the pedal driven kayaks are due to design.  They don't talk about Wavewalk speed, only comparing traditional kayaks to pedaling kayaks.  I did find this note in another part of their website.

“How fast is the 11’4″ long Wavewalk™ 500 kayak?” is this:  The W500 kayak is faster than any fishing kayak that’s shorter than 15′ , and it’s as fast as any touring kayak that’s 13′ long.

So, they are basically saying that the W500 is faster than a Revo 13, and even the Tarpon 140.  Really? And for how long? 

Reverse.  Really?  How often does reversing come up?  And in those moments, I have my paddle, or my Backwater paddle, or even popping the Mirage out and reversing it (although in 5-6 years of owning a Hobie, I've never had to do that).

Rudy, I'm with you on trying to bite the tongue and let this roll off.  However, it just begs of some one on one testing in every area they compared.  There could be a tests with newbies that have never kayaked in either, and/or tests with experienced users of both kinds to dispel inaccuracies.

I would like to see an experienced Wavewalk owner paddle that thing for 8+ hours alongside any of the Hobie models in any condition (especially windy and rough ocean) while fishing, and then get up and do it again the very next day.

Speaking of paddling, it looks like the Wavewalk requires 9' paddles to compensate for the extreme height above the water.  In the upright sitting position as they created it, I would love to see anyone (besides Pole' Pole' or our greatly missed Pelagic Paddler) attempt to paddle the Wavewalk efficiently for hours without back pain, as there is no designed back support, or foot rest to properly plant the foot and use the torso to paddle with.

Any Wavewalk owners here on NWKA feel that the article from Wavewalk is totally accurate in their plow to sell a product? 

Note: I want to make it clear that I do not feel that Wavewalk is a bad product at all.  It has it's advantages and uses, therefore it is a viable option for some folks.   

I have never heard of Wave Walk, so I checked out their website. Looks like the greatest thing since Snake Oil to me!

I believe every word in Wavewalk's rigorous scientific research.  Every syllable.  Where once I envied you - and had started looking for a Revo of my own - I now pity you.  You are stuck there, suffering debilitating leg cramps and desperately trying to keep your kayaks upright, while I, on the other hand, am in a kayak so stable that I can stand up and dance the fandango any time I want - because my legs still work - and can lift my kayak above my head as if it were no more than a feather because I, unlike you, haven't blown out my lower back by pedaling but instead have developed unsurpassed upper body strength from paddling...

Rudy, I am in awe of your adventures in waters I wouldn't dare to float, much less fish.  Don't let the idiots drag you off the pedestal I keep you on.



My first paragraph here is bullpoo, people.  Leave me alone - I'm busy trying to find a Revo 13 I can call my own.

Most of the stuff on the internet about Wavewalk kayaks seems to have been posted by Wavewalk dealers.  Has anybody seen an objective test or comparison of the stability of Wavewalk kayaks on the internet?  Does anybody have an explanation, or theory, about why a 31 inch wide Wavewalk 700 would be more stable than a 33 inch wide Hobie Outback?  Particularly since the paddler is positioned a lot higher in the Wavewalk than in the Outback?  Being a non-technical dope, I get confused by scientific explanations of initial stability and secondary stability.  Perhaps the Wavewalk may be more stable because all its flotation is concentrated at the edges of its width? After all, a 31 inch diameter cylinder would roll freely in the water and be completely unstable.

Here's an interesting question:  A large part of Hobie's business is the manufacture of catamarans.  Why hasn't Hobie developed a two-hulled paddle kayak?  They make single-hulled paddle kayaks with outriggers, but not two-hulled paddle kayaks.

I am the Wavewalk dealer in WA state.  I own and sell the W500 and the W700.  I and my family have fished out of them for the last 3+ years.  We are very small dealership and I represent Wavewalk because I like their kayaks.  They are the perfect boat for what I do and a Hobie would not work.  You can search my posts and find videos of me fishing, and downriggin for kokanee and catching some pink salmon etc. and dragging them across mudflats in pursuit of ducks.  If you want to evaluate the boats cool,  I would love to have that conversation. All boats have their strengths and weaknesses.  There is no one boat fits all.   If you would like to schedule a demo sometime to put some of the claims to the test I am sure I could accommodate you. 

I am not interested in and won't spend any time defending someone else's statements or arguments.  I didn't make them.  You are welcome to your opinion on them. I don't need the little ribbon that says "Congratulations, You won the Internet!" 

I will respond to this though just for clarity and to share my experiance.

I would like to see an experienced Wavewalk owner paddle that thing for 8+ hours alongside any of the Hobie models in any condition (especially windy and rough ocean) while fishing, and then get up and do it again the very next day.
Speaking of paddling, it looks like the Wavewalk requires 9' paddles to compensate for the extreme height above the water.  In the upright sitting position as they created it, I would love to see anyone (besides Pole' Pole' or our greatly missed Pelagic Paddler) attempt to paddle the Wavewalk efficiently for hours without back pain, as there is no designed back support, or foot rest to properly plant the foot and use the torso to paddle with.

I regularly paddle for 8+ hours trolling.  While I have never been out in big blue yet, my longest trip on the salt was Sunrise beach to the Narrows.  (with the tide except for the last 45 min). I was trolling (unsuccessfully) for chinook so it was not a float.  The kayak did great.  I also regularly do a 1.5 mile (one way) trip on the South Sound in the dark in adverse weather in pursuit of the elusive wigeon. (Doing another one this Sunday!)   I have spent a fair bit of time on American lake, and stayed out when a lot of the motor boats went home because of wind.   I would be up for the challenge someday, but both in equipment (drysuit, radio etc) and experience I am not yet in a place to do that safely.  I will get out there though.

The thing about the Wavewalk and back pains is two fold.  One most of us (including me) live a sedentary lifestyle. We have bad posture and a weak back.  There is also a specific set of muscles that you use in paddling. Would your back hurt after such an adventure, probably. Not because of the kayak but because most Americans are fat and out of shape.  .  But once you build yourself up (muscles and skills) that really would not be difficult.  You do become a much better paddler in efficiency , conservation of motion, etc.  As far as posture goes, you have flexibility.  I am not stuck in one position,  I can also stand up and stretch out (and keep paddling) which feels nice. Your idea of not being able to plant your feet isn't really an issue, you are either flat footed or on the balls of your feet (which puts you in a better posture- not parroting it really does, come paddle it) or you could put your feet in front of you if you want.  The ability to move around to adjust the balance of the boat to wind, wave , current conditions is a plus also. If you are in a physical condition that needs back support even if it is just temporary you can add that and some older folks do.  I have found that I don't yet need it,  although I have played around with some different ideas (simple stadium seat). 

As to the 9' paddle.  Shorter paddles do not work well standing up, (which is one of the things the Wavewalk does very well- fly fishermen and bass fishermen really enjoy the boat).   In addition, with the position above the water the 9' paddle gives me a longer slower stroke than the typical short paddles/close to the water position, but I get better distance from that stroke.   If you paddle much you know that every kayak/angler has a pace.  The pace of the Wavewalk is slower in the number of strokes but not in the distance it travels.  I consider that an advantage for long duration, distance.  Its design makes it track like an arrow so little strokes to adjust direction here and there are just not needed.

I joined this forum because I want to contribute to the sport.  I did not join the forum to market a product. 
My signature includes that I am a dealer as a method of full disclosure.  I don't want people to think I am just posting to covertly try and sell boats.  I encourage my clients to paddle them all. It just may be that a Hobie fits you better, cool.  They are undoubtably great boats with lots of fans.  The Wavewalk is a unique boat that has some versatility in areas where a Hobie does not.  It was conceived and is 100% made in good ole USA as a testament to American innovation and a business ethic I appreciate.  I have grown to know the owner/inventor of Wavewalk kayaks and I can tell you he is passionate about his boats!  I like that too.  If you are going to do something do it all the way.   He is continuing to innovate and the W700 is what you will be seeing me in a bit more this year. 

Personally I don't slam other people's products and I can tell that the Wavewalk is not snake oil, but really is a great kayak.  It may not be for you, but for some of us it fits just right. 

Happy paddling.

Does anybody have an explanation, or theory, about why a 31 inch wide Wavewalk 700 would be more stable than a 33 inch wide Hobie Outback?  Particularly since the paddler is positioned a lot higher in the Wavewalk than in the Outback?

I have never paddled/peddled the Outback, but as to the stability of the Wavewalk design here is what I think. Stability is achieved with a wider boat and lower center of gravity.  However, it is sacrificed with the curves and angles that reduce drag.  You feel this when you lean over the boat and figure out the spot right before your roll.  (compare the stability of a jon boat to same width  V-hull) With the Wavewalk you sit higher which would make you think that the center of gravity is a lot higher, but because the twin hulls are narrow (even though the overall width is 31") your center of gravity is actually lower than you think.  So the tipping point on a Wavewalk might be more extreme.  That is my theory.

I just started paddling the W700 and they are incredibly stable.  I am putting 3 doz. decoys, guns, hunting box etc. and it is not flinching.
 
In three  years the only time I tipped one over was on purpose at a swimming beach. Something I highly recommend in any kayak.

1) As a recent entry into the consumer base, I considered the WW. The stability argument appealed to me.

However, I saw the paddling position as being really uncomfortable FOR ME.

2) I see the WW more as an alternative to a jon boat. It might be more effective for them to position it that way instead of taking shots at Kayaks generally, and Hobie specifically. Perhaps taking the best of a jon/duck boat and kayak both.

It seems like it is really well suited to a small motor than to paddling.

3) Reading that particular website, two thoughts struck me. First, the author was good at matching the style of an academic paper, but not the substance. Questionable assertions and opinions passed of as analysis. It was also in dire need of proofreading. I came away with the impression of someone who thinks he is smarter than he actually is.

The other thought that occurred to me is that the "comments" section were very similar in writing style, sentence structure, length, vocabulary level, and other subtleties to the blog author. I came away thinking he wrote those all himself.

Just my impression.

I don't think the WW itself is snake oil, I think there is a niche for them. But this particularly dealer did not do himself, or his brand any favors.