Kayak Fishing Paddles

Not sure if anyone addressed the wing paddles yet, and I don't feel like going back through 4 pages of brokeback kayak fishing.  So ... don't do it.  IMO, wing paddles are good for going straight and fast.  It's like putting a Ferrari engine in an 18 wheeler.  Not worth the effort/money.  And they don't do well for maneuvering like you pointed out (sculling strokes, etc).

-Allen

What exactly is a wing paddle?

If I'm thinking correctly

What exactly is a wing paddle?

Its a racing paddle with a funny blade. The wing refers to the shape of the paddle blade. Its sort of spoon shaped with a curled leading edge (trailing edge of the paddle?) forming an airfoil (hydofoil?) like an aircraft wing. The idea is to develop a higher pressure on the inside of the blade as you move it through the water compared to the outside of the blade and "create" lift*. Clear as mud huh?



What attracted me initially is the stroke. As you move the paddle through the water the blade goes away from the boat (if you don't, the foil goes under the boat and pulls you right along with it for a surprise boat bottom inspection). That moving out at the end of the stoke would accommodate our wider SOT hulls. It also plants solidly and does not slip water. I was hoping that I could get that effect without having an enormous blade.

Downside is they don't do high braces (necessary for surf), sculling is at best challenging, and they are completely unforgiving of poor technique. BTW: I read all this crap and have zero personal experience. (Does that about cover it?)

Ravadot: I think that's the powerflex that I have. I don't think it's a wing but it sure is BIG.


Here's a couple of waaaaay better explanations:

http://www.fastkayak.com/paddle.html

http://www.archronicles.com/3004.htm

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Wing_Paddle

http://www.onnopaddles.com/paddles.html




*in other words: "oooooooooow, shiny!"

Cool!  Thanks for the 411. 
Doesn't look like anything I'll be playing with soon.

It's like putting a Ferrari engine in an 18 wheeler.  
-Allen

Straighten me out here Allen. Using the engine analogy, wouldn't a wing paddle be more of a HUGE torque producer? I understand they were designed with high revs in mind, but don't they just "pull" harder whether they going fast or not? More akin to a bunch of blown hemi's on a pulling tractor?

Doesn't look like anything I'll be playing with soon.

Me nether.  

I stumbled into a really interesting older discussion of wing paddles. Better explanation than I've ever heard (read) and makes it look more appealing for our application (assuming you hold you head sideways and squint)  

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=853424

Werner Kalliste  I won't buy anything else but that if I ever break it!
Lightest paddle out there for an old man like me.

It's like putting a Ferrari engine in an 18 wheeler.  
-Allen

Straighten me out here Allen. Using the engine analogy, wouldn't a wing paddle be more of a HUGE torque producer? I understand they were designed with high revs in mind, but don't they just "pull" harder whether they going fast or not? More akin to a bunch of blown hemi's on a pulling tractor?

Doesn't look like anything I'll be playing with soon.

Me nether.  

You actually don't pull harder, you increase your cadence and keep the same pressure on the blade. It's all about torso rotation, not pulling with your arms. Your arms don't actually do anything but lift the blade up and down, the
"pull" comes from twisting your torso and pushing on the foot pegs.The huge cup shape of the wing grabs more water and hangs on to it to provide greater thrust, among other things going on.

I wouldn't recommend a wing on an SOT, you'd most likely blow a shoulder. they are great for forward thrust, but not very good for directional control.

J

You actually don't pull harder, you increase your cadence and keep the same pressure on the blade. It's all about torso rotation, not pulling with your arms. Your arms don't actually do anything but lift the blade up and down, the
"pull" comes from twisting your torso and pushing on the foot pegs.The huge cup shape of the wing grabs more water and hangs on to it to provide greater thrust, among other things going on.

I wouldn't recommend a wing on an SOT, you'd most likely blow a shoulder. they are great for forward thrust, but not very good for directional control.

J

I'm not sure you understand how exactly wing blades work.  It's not just about the huge cup shape grabbing more water.  And there is a lot of arm work involved in pushing the blade out as you stroke back.

http://www.archronicles.com/3003.htm

-Allen

Technique probably makes things more efficient or easier, but I don't think it matters as much to some as it does to others.  I'll be my technique is awful, but I do just fine.


Edit:  Get off the fence and come to the ORC and give me a lesson.   

You actually don't pull harder, you increase your cadence and keep the same pressure on the blade. It's all about torso rotation, not pulling with your arms. Your arms don't actually do anything but lift the blade up and down, the
"pull" comes from twisting your torso and pushing on the foot pegs.The huge cup shape of the wing grabs more water and hangs on to it to provide greater thrust, among other things going on.

I wouldn't recommend a wing on an SOT, you'd most likely blow a shoulder. they are great for forward thrust, but not very good for directional control.

J

I'm not sure you understand how exactly wing blades work.  It's not just about the huge cup shape grabbing more water.  And there is a lot of arm work involved in pushing the blade out as you stroke back.

http://www.archronicles.com/3003.htm

-Allen

Sorry was trying to keep from writing another novel and coming off as a super nerd know it all......again. you're right, there is more to it than that...but way too much typing for me. I'm familiar with the technique, and know about the airplane wing shape etc, etc, etc.

My main point was that to go faster no matter what paddle you're using, you don't pull harder, you move faster (increase the cadence)

If you put the paddle in at your feet and twist your torso and exit the blade at your hip, the paddle travels away from the boat (sideways) throughout the stroke, making a V from the bow. Same with a wing, you just exaggerate it a bit to get more of that sideways motion.

I've experimented with this variation in technique with a normal Eurostyle paddle and a wing. You definitely haul with a wing, but I find it rather impractical for everything besides going forward. A good compromise is the Epic mid-wing. The wing shape isn't quite as exaggerated as in the full wing.

Yep Jason.  Agree with that.

Have you ever tried a J stroke?  It's just a normal stroke with a "kick" at the end.  I started doing this with the Lendal paddles.  If I didn't the paddle tended to dive into the yak and felt weird.  But that swipe at the end of the paddle stroke really gives you a little extra something.  Or course that might just be with the Lendals.

-Allen

Werner Kalliste  I won't buy anything else but that if I ever break it!
Lightest paddle out there for an old man like me.

Watch out buddy! We are the same age.

Yep Jason.  Agree with that.

Have you ever tried a J stroke?  It's just a normal stroke with a "kick" at the end.  I started doing this with the Lendal paddles.  If I didn't the paddle tended to dive into the yak and felt weird.  But that swipe at the end of the paddle stroke really gives you a little extra something.  Or course that might just be with the Lendals.

-Allen

Yes, I don't know if I would call what I'm describing exactly a J stroke, but yes, that's pretty much what I'm referring too. It kind of feels like the blade hits a solid wall on the exit and you get allot of thrust from that blade air/hydrofoiling. You can get that effect from all paddles, but you really benefit the most from it with a wing.

I guess I'm powering off the powerface rather than the backside like a j stroke. that would be the main difference. I'm not prying with it to hold my line, I'm popping it off the "wall" of water on my exit to get an extra push.

With regard to cadence and high-glide boats.....

Is there a threshold of sorts?  It seems to a dumbazz like me that, after a certain number of strokes/min, you'd start interfering with the resulting glide, and actually cause the boat to slow.  In my mind, each paddle stroke results in a bit of high-efficiency glide.  The thrust is transferred to the forward motion of the boat, and then declines at a certain rate.  Hitting the beginning of said decline with another stroke keeps a constant forward speed.  Hitting the timepoint too late results in a momentary reduction in speed.  Hitting too early, then, would seem wasteful.  Make sense?  This is how my mind has wrapped around it, but, after reading this thread, I am getting confused.

I think I understand the physical mechanics of torso rotation and use of leg, but this sort of thing has always escaped me.  Thoughts?

With regard to cadence and high-glide boats.....

Is there a threshold of sorts?  It seems to a dumbazz like me that, after a certain number of strokes/min, you'd start interfering with the resulting glide, and actually cause the boat to slow.  In my mind, each paddle stroke results in a bit of high-efficiency glide.  The thrust is transferred to the forward motion of the boat, and then declines at a certain rate.  Hitting the beginning of said decline with another stroke keeps a constant forward speed.  Hitting the timepoint too late results in a momentary reduction in speed.  Hitting too early, then, would seem wasteful.  Make sense?  This is how my mind has wrapped around it, but, after reading this thread, I am getting confused.

I think I understand the physical mechanics of torso rotation and use of leg, but this sort of thing has always escaped me.  Thoughts?

Yeah that sounds similar to when  a car meets a certain air resistance that it can't go any faster, without dramatically increasing the horsepower.  The Wife and I are taking a basic strokes course and recovery class soon and hopefully will learn something useful!  She can hit 6.5 mph in my Pygmy Boats Borealis XL(17' long and 25.5" wide)!  Sure it is only a sprint of 100 meters, but that seems pretty good for a "large/wide" ocean kayak.  I have watched quite a few YouPube videos and they all emphasize using your torso and legs rather than your arms for power.