WA yak fishing guide license

Well, I guess it wasn't optimism, but a smug F you I was detecting in their voice.

DENIED. previous explanation stands.

They said the only way a charter license can be issued outside of those perameters is if the director of F&W OK's it.

So I'm typing up an e-mail right now. I'd like to send it first before we start pounding them and they don't know who to contact.

After I send it, it would be awesome if we could unleash that pester bomb.  I'll reply here after I get it sent. I will post the directors e-mail here too in a bit.

I still question whether it is a "charter" license.  They are NOT on your kayak.

Let me know what and when you need this hound to get unleashed.

-Allen

That's what I said. Really the problem is, that there is no other option for guided bottom fishing in marine area 7. It's a non-salmon charter, or nothing else, and that really, really needs to change.

I'm typing now, will post as soon as it's off.

my lawyer (thank God for highschool buddies) is reviewing my letter right now.

according to wdfw:
"Charter boat" means a vessel from which persons may, for a fee, fish for food fish or shellfish for personal use in those waters to include: the Columbia River below the bridge at Longview, Lake Washington, Puget Sound, Grays Harbor, Willapa Bay, and Pacific Ocean waters. Applicable waters also include offshore waters and waters of other states.

the catch is that technically we don't charge for kayaks/gear...you are only paying for the guide. Currently on our SJ 5 day, it's the same price if you bring your own boat & gear, or if we provide it for you. So technically, the definition of "charter boat" does not apply.

Now if only I can get them to see it this way.

WDFW: What is a guide?
"Although not specifically defined by rule, in general, “guide” means a person who, for compensation, offers services to transport, or accompany people in their fishing activities, and instructs them by sharing fishing techniques, expertise and knowledge of the fish and waters being fished. Washington has two categories of guides. Game fish guides can operate statewide, but are limited to offering services relating only to fishing for game fish. Food fish guides offer services relating only to food fish, in freshwater areas, except they may not provide services in Lake Washington or the Columbia River downstream of the Longview Bridge."


WDFW: "A Non-Salmon Charter license is required if you accept a fee to take a person fishing for food fish other than salmon, albacore tuna or shellfish in Marine Areas 1 through 13 (including 2-1 Willapa Bay, 2-2 Grays Harbor, 8-1 and 8-2), Lake Washington, or the Columbia River downstream of the Longview Bridge."

My other argument is that my clients aren't accepting a fee, only me, so why do they (their kayaks) need to have a non-salmon charter license?

I honestly don't see how they can argue against this, other than the fact that it's a govt. bureaucracy

Ask them which exact license is needed for the shore based guides that take people sea run cutthroat fishing.  I don't view this as any different.  Again, I asked them this a long time ago and didn't get very far with it.  But it is worth asking again.

-Allen

When you write your letter to the director, be sure to give him some facts like how many people the average 'charter' vessel takes out, and ask him if you can get a single charter license to take out X amount of kayaks as a single charter vessel.  It seems reasonable that he would agree to a letter to approve your request if you agree to only take a maximum number of kayaks that is about equal to the average number of people that are on a normal charter boat. 

Throw in some mumbo jumbo about chartering people for kayak fishing being more environmentally friendly than big gas guzzling boats and being a positive move for environmental protection.

here's the letter. I'm waiting for my lawyers revisions before it gets sent, but here's where I'm at:

Dear Mr. Anderson,

My name is Jason Self. I am a licensed & insured kayak guide/outfitter and instructor in Washington and Oregon, and a natianonally sponsored kayak angler. Currently I lead multi-day sea kayaking & camping trips in the San Juan Islands, and I am trying to offer guided kayak fishing for our clients as well. More specifically, I would like to lead bottom fishing trips in the San Juans.

I have hit a wall with the "non-salmon charter license" requirements. The law was obviously not written with kayak fishing in mind, and the way it reads and has been interpreted by the licensing staff at WDFW is that each kayak in my group would need a non-salmon charter license. So for me to take out 10 people kayak fishing for bottom fish in marine area 7, it would cost $4,100 in license fees, but for a power boat to take out 10 people, they only have to buy one non-salmon charter license at $410, and really, that covers them for as many people as they can take out in a year.

Also, if I were to license 10 kayaks so I could take 9 clients kayak fishing, who's to say those ten boats will work for everyone? What if I get a 300 pound client that won't fit into one of the 10 kayaks I've licensed? I would have to buy another non-salmon charter license for yet another boat, and the cycle never really seems to end.

Obviously the way this is being interpreted stifles any chance of guided kayak fishing ever happening in Washington. The way I've been told the license fees apply make it financialy impossible for anyone to do this, which is lost potential revenue to the state of Washington, WDFW, and me.

The argument I have with the law, is that first of all, it states that "A non-salmon charter license is required if you accept a fee to take a person fishing for food fish..." My clients are not accepting a fee, only I am. So why would I need a license for every kayak?

According to WDFW, "Charter boat" means a vessel from which persons may, for a fee, fish for food fish or shellfish for personal use in those waters to include: the Columbia River below the bridge at Longview, Lake Washington, Puget Sound, Grays Harbor, Willapa Bay, and Pacific Ocean waters. Applicable waters also include offshore waters and waters of other states.

Currently the way our kayak trips work, the client pays for the guide, and boats and gear are included for free. Clients don't get a discount if they bring their own kayak, and they don't pay any more if we provide one. No fee is accepted for use of our kayaks, therefore according to the WDFW definition of a "charter boat", I should not have to buy a non-salmon charter license for this activity.

Not only that, but wouldn't this mean that anyone who rents a kayak from an outfitter and then fishes from it would fall into that "a vessel from which persons may, for a fee, fish for food fish or shellfish for personal use..." category? If so, every outfitter would have to buy a charter license for every boat in their livery.

I'm not captaining or chartering a boat or vessel. People are in charge of their own vessel (one man kayak), and I am in charge of my own kayak. Having to license each kayak doesn't seem to have any rationale behind it, other than kayaks weren't considered when the law was written. On top of that, it seems as if kayaks are being singled out and discriminated against by making us pay a higher/more fees than power boats for providing the same service.

Currently in Oregon, my guide/outfitter license, insurance, and 1st aid/CPR that I already have are all I need to guide kayak fishing in freshwater and saltwater, and we have bottom fishing trips scheduled for the spring. There are no unweildy requirements in California or Alaska either, where guided kayak fishing has really taken off.

 My hope in writing you is that you will see that the current law is not serving the needs of the people, and I hope to be given an opportunity to get properly licensed to offer a service for our clients. I am only hoping to opporate within the law, but the law does not consider my situation, and the situation of all future kayak fishing guides.

I am also open to suggestions or alternatives to the non-salmon charter license, as it wasn't explained clearly that it was my only option for guiding kayak fishing for bottom fish in marine area 7.

Is there any possibility of being issued a license to guide kayak fishing for bottom fish in the State of Washington, or allow me to be issued a non-salmon charter license?

Please feel free to contact me should you need additional information.

 
Eagerly waiting your reply,

 

Jason Self

here's the letter. I'm waiting for my lawyers revisions before it gets sent, but here's where I'm at:

Dear Mr. Anderson,

My name is Jason Self. I am a licensed & insured kayak guide/outfitter and instructor in Washington and Oregon, and a natianonally sponsored kayak angler. Currently I lead multi-day sea kayaking & camping trips in the San Juan Islands, and I am trying to offer guided kayak fishing for our clients as well. More specifically, I would like to lead bottom fishing trips in the San Juans.

I have hit a wall with the "non-salmon charter license" requirements. The law was obviously not written with kayak fishing in mind, and the way it reads and has been interpreted by the licensing staff at WDFW is that each kayak in my group would need a non-salmon charter license. So for me to take out 10 people kayak fishing for bottom fish in marine area 7, it would cost $4,100 in license fees, but for a power boat to take out 10 people, they only have to buy one non-salmon charter license at $410, and really, that covers them for as many people as they can take out in a year.

Also, if I were to license 10 kayaks so I could take 9 clients kayak fishing, who's to say those ten boats will work for everyone? What if I get a 300 pound client that won't fit into one of the 10 kayaks I've licensed? I would have to buy another non-salmon charter license for yet another boat, and the cycle never really seems to end.

Obviously the way this is being interpreted stifles any chance of guided kayak fishing ever happening in Washington. The way I've been told the license fees apply make it financialy impossible for anyone to do this, which is lost potential revenue to the state of Washington, WDFW, and me.

The argument I have with the law, is that first of all, it states that "A non-salmon charter license is required if you accept a fee to take a person fishing for food fish..." My clients are not accepting a fee, only I am. So why would I need a license for every kayak?

According to WDFW, "Charter boat" means a vessel from which persons may, for a fee, fish for food fish or shellfish for personal use in those waters to include: the Columbia River below the bridge at Longview, Lake Washington, Puget Sound, Grays Harbor, Willapa Bay, and Pacific Ocean waters. Applicable waters also include offshore waters and waters of other states.

Currently the way our kayak trips work, the client pays for the guide, and boats and gear are included for free. Clients don't get a discount if they bring their own kayak, and they don't pay any more if we provide one. No fee is accepted for use of our kayaks, therefore according to the WDFW definition of a "charter boat", I should not have to buy a non-salmon charter license for this activity.

Not only that, but wouldn't this mean that anyone who rents a kayak from an outfitter and then fishes from it would fall into that "a vessel from which persons may, for a fee, fish for food fish or shellfish for personal use..." category? If so, every outfitter would have to buy a charter license for every boat in their livery.

I'm not captaining or chartering a boat or vessel. People are in charge of their own vessel (one man kayak), and I am in charge of my own kayak. Having to license each kayak doesn't seem to have any rationale behind it, other than kayaks weren't considered when the law was written. On top of that, it seems as if kayaks are being singled out and discriminated against by making us pay a higher/more fees than power boats for providing the same service.

Currently in Oregon, my guide/outfitter license, insurance, and 1st aid/CPR that I already have are all I need to guide kayak fishing in freshwater and saltwater, and we have bottom fishing trips scheduled for the spring. There are no unweildy requirements in California or Alaska either, where guided kayak fishing has really taken off.

 My hope in writing you is that you will see that the current law is not serving the needs of the people, and I hope to be given an opportunity to get properly licensed to offer a service for our clients. I am only hoping to opporate within the law, but the law does not consider my situation, and the situation of all future kayak fishing guides.

I am also open to suggestions or alternatives to the non-salmon charter license, as it wasn't explained clearly that it was my only option for guiding kayak fishing for bottom fish in marine area 7.

Is there any possibility of being issued a license to guide kayak fishing for bottom fish in the State of Washington, or allow me to be issued a non-salmon charter license?

Please feel free to contact me should you need additional information.

 
Eagerly waiting your reply,

 

Jason Self

I did some strike throughs on spelling errors.  The letter sounds good.  I'd still add in some environmental appeal if ya could.

I just talked to the enforcement officer for marine area 7, and he seems to agree with me. He's calling licensing to see if they can work something out. He's supposed to call me back tomorrow.

Still haven't sent the letter.

yeah I forgot to mention I hadn't spell checked yet. Don't worry, I will before it gets sent!

anyone have any ideas where I could get info reguarding revenue generated in AK or CA by guided kayak fishing?

I think if they smell money, they'll go for it.

If I can say "kayak fishing generated $3 million in CA last year" they're going to get all horny for money and probably won't care about anything else. they're broke!

J

Ask them which exact license is needed for the shore based guides that take people sea run cutthroat fishing.  I don't view this as any different.  Again, I asked them this a long time ago and didn't get very far with it.  But it is worth asking again.

-Allen

From what I understand a "guide" is on freshwater. a "charter" is on salt water. different word for the same service. and really that makes no sense. a charter is not a guide, but a boat you pay to haul you around. what do I and Websters dictionary know that WDFW doesn't? I guess all that really matters in this case is how WDFW defines charter.

interstingly enough, the officer did say basically that if fishing was just "another activity" that we did while kayak camping, then no license is required. However if fishing is the specific activity, a license IS required. It means I could do it now, but not advertise it as a "kayak fishing" trip, and I really, really want to advertise kayak fishing as a specific activity. Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything that we're already doing, and I'm hoping to grow this into it's own category for our business.

Ask them which exact license is needed for the shore based guides that take people sea run cutthroat fishing.  I don't view this as any different.  Again, I asked them this a long time ago and didn't get very far with it.  But it is worth asking again.

-Allen

From what I understand a "guide" is on freshwater. a "charter" is on salt water. different word for the same service. and really that makes no sense. a charter is not a guide, but a boat you pay to haul you around. what do I and Websters dictionary know that WDFW doesn't? I guess all that really matters in this case is how WDFW defines charter.

I'm talking about guides that fish for sea run cutties (and salmon), in the salt, from shore.

For example ... http://www.emeraldwateranglers.com/puget_sound.html

-Allen

BTW, you would not need any sort of Coast Guard certification such as a Charter Boat Captain.  So obviously the Coast Guard doesn't consider it that you are chartering anything.

-Allen