WA yak fishing guide license

it's the boat part that's the hang up. I understand what you're saying with the sea run cutty guide thing.

If I was guiding from shore, I'd be good to go already. It's all about the boats, and that's where the charter hang up is.

At least we've discerned what the issue is though.

Posts crossing in the ethernet.  See my last post attempting to address the charter issues.

-Allen

BTW, you would not need any sort of Coast Guard certification such as a Charter Boat license.  So obviously the Coast Guard doesn't consider it that you are chartering anything.

-Allen

This sounds funny, but I think it's less about what makes sense, and more about the argument for them. The people in the field seem to agree with me, the people at the office don't.

getting someone to give in is all it's going to take, and I'm hoping my new buddy Ralph the enforcement officer will be able to communicate my points to them without the "challenge" and "defensiveness" that comes from joe schmoe calling you up and telling you how to do your job (me).

I'm trying to dig up the info, but I think there is something like a license advisory committee within WDFW.  A few years back there was even a sponsored kayak angler on the committee.

-Allen

BTW, you would not need any sort of Coast Guard certification such as a Charter Boat license.  So obviously the Coast Guard doesn't consider it that you are chartering anything.

-Allen

This sounds funny, but I think it's less about what makes sense, and more about the argument for them. The people in the field seem to agree with me, the people at the office don't.

getting someone to give in is all it's going to take, and I'm hoping my new buddy Ralph the enforcement officer will be able to communicate my points to them without the "challenge" and "defensiveness" that comes from joe schmoe calling you up and telling you how to do your job (me).

I know.

I'm just trying to arm you with the bullets that I can think of.

Another bullet.  Now only do you not need a Coast Guard Captains ticket, do you need a Coast Guard certified boat to do kayak tours.  I don't think so, right?

Bottom line, you are not taking people on YOUR kayak, which is why you or your kayak do not need to be Coast Guard certified.

IMO, there is a thin line between the fly fishing guide that wades INTO the water up to his waist with his clients.  And you and your clients sitting in kayaks 25 yards further offshore.  Note, if this arguments holds up, you should be able to fish salmon too!!!

-Allen

I'm trying to dig up the info, but I think there is something like a license advisory committee within WDFW.  A few years back there was even a sponsored kayak angler on the committee.

-Allen

that would be sweet to have someone sympathetic on the inside.

I'm holding off on my letter until I see what enforcement officer Ralph has to say tomorrow.

Any idea of taxable revenue generated by guided kayak fishing in CA? I'm e-mailing Howard to see if he has an idea for AK.

When you write your letter to the director, be sure to give him some facts like how many people the average 'charter' vessel takes out, and ask him if you can get a single charter license to take out X amount of kayaks as a single charter vessel.  It seems reasonable that he would agree to a letter to approve your request if you agree to only take a maximum number of kayaks that is about equal to the average number of people that are on a normal charter boat.  

Throw in some mumbo jumbo about chartering people for kayak fishing being more environmentally friendly than big gas guzzling boats and being a positive move for environmental protection.

Dude I hear you about the environmental argument, but these are the kind of folks that think kayaking is just plain crazy. They are powerboat guys that look at kayakers as "knuckleheads"...and unfortunately for us, they typically don't ever get to experience non-knuckleheads because they don't need rescue, break laws, or in general ever have a reason to interact with a WDFW officer.

A few bad apples have them thinking of all kayakers this way, and they really just don't know anything about it in the first place.

The last thing I want to do is go right or left politically with these guys. Unfortunately, even mentioning "environment" with some people causes a defensive reaction that I don't need. I'm just sticking to what they care about; Money, and their law. These aren't scientists I'm talking to, but bureaucrats, F&W cops, and govt. admin. employees. I just need to keep it simple and argue the one hang-up in this whole deal, and that's their definition of "charter" and how it does not apply to me.

Knuckleheads is a direct quote from enforcement officer Ralph. He said he used to give kayakers the benefit of the doubt, but he's seen too many people that don't know the rules & regs just decide to fish from their kayaks.

I can see his point. and I can see how kayakers would think that way too.

Let me know what and when you need this hound to get unleashed.

-Allen

Could we start some kind of online petition? It would be cool to say there's 150 people that agree with me....if there are.

AJ=1/150

I'm trying to dig up the info, but I think there is something like a license advisory committee within WDFW.  A few years back there was even a sponsored kayak angler on the committee.

-Allen

that would be sweet to have someone sympathetic on the inside.

I'm holding off on my letter until I see what enforcement officer Ralph has to say tomorrow.

Any idea of taxable revenue generated by guided kayak fishing in CA? I'm e-mailing Howard to see if he has an idea for AK.

Jason, you should be able to get information like that from the departments of commerce for each state or chambers of commerce from most cities

oy. more bureaucracy. I suppose I have to...

There are 4 kayak fishing outfits in AK.  I'd be surprised if they brought in a combined $100K between all 4.

-Allen

I can spin it dude. ha ha ha ha.

the $3m I said earlier was just a random number. I think that if I use numbers from the paddlesports industry, more specifically kayak fishing and the growth of that segment, and numbers from guided fishing and guided kayaking, that I can make the argument for loss of serious potential revenue, small biz development, job creation, etc.

It's really just a side argument to the main argument anyway.

One point that hasn't been brought up, yet, is that WDFW's position conflicts with long established maritime law.

Under maritime law, each vessel has a captain and that captain is liable for all actions (even if there is a local pilot on board, to bring the vessel in or out of port) of that vessel. Ownership of the vessel is not an issue. If I bare-boat charter (rent) a boat, no one else is responsible for what happens aboard that boat, other than myself. If I am in one vessel, I am never liable for the actions of someone else captaining their own vessel. If I am alone in my own vessel, whether I own it or not, the only licenses I need are the regular recreational licenses and catch record cards. From the "guides" perspective, for the WDFW to insist that I be responsible for licensing anybody else, captaining their own vessel, is just not defensible under maritime law. From a "clients" perspective, to insist that I, or someone else, purchase a charter license for my own personal recreational fishing, from my own vessel, is absurd.

Strategies:

Besides politicking WDFW, I would contact some legislators, especially from areas where you would generate economic activity. It's too bad you're an Oregonian, Nanook- you might have a harder time getting much traction.

Another option is to just do it, forcing WDFW's hand. If they try to slap you down, go to the press/media and take the issue to the "court" of public opinion. I think they would find it embarrassing to have to try to defend their actions.

That's good info.

I thought about the Oregonian thing. I don't think they actually know I'm in OR. But they might like it more because I have to pay an out of state fee.

I make sure to tell them that I've been guiding in both states for several years. The only thing that's come up has been from Ralph, asked me about the 503 area code. His primary concern seems to be knowing & abiding by regs where your at, so I slipped in a few key words in our conversation to let him know I have a good knowledge of the subject. I also slip in that whole Fish & Wildlife degree thing and that seemed to close the door on that concern.